# Why the hell do we have navies? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 22, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222 "2011-02-22T14:37:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/41 "2011-02-22T19:02:36Z")
> [@Any\_Other\_Name](#): > > Couldn’t an effective virtual blockade be set up at relatively low cost, using satellites and AWACS (or whatever provides an eye in the sky these days - do any drones carry radar units?). Depends upon the amount of traffic outbound from Somalia. Set a limit of 120 miles for local traffic, such as fishing boats. Any vessel traveling beyond the blockade must report itself, or be considered hostile. Violations could result in a vessel investigating, or a hostile response, the response might depend on risk assessment for each situation. Are we willing to “hunt, identify and destroy” illegal Chinese factory trawlers and illegal Italian waste barges? If not, how do we justify to Somalia that we are willing to enforce rules on their citizens in their territory while ignoring (or even facilitating, since we are protecting them from attack) criminals from other countries? I suspect we really don’t want to have to answer these questions or justify our responses. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/42 "2011-02-22T19:04:37Z")
> [@Agnostic\_Pagan](#): > > **Nadir** , you do understand that I am talking about a multinational task force. You don’t think the combined navies of the OECD along with India and other regional… No. I’ll tell you what I understand, which is also by coincidence, what I believe you do not understand. Firstly, the Somalia pirate problem, despite being a real heart-string tugger for today’s multimedia-enabled Internet-connected news readers, is but a tiny sideshow in the current U.S. foreign policy brochure. That is it’s real honest-to-goodness logistical and budgetary perspective. It’s just nowhere near the top of the priority list in competition for scarce resources at the national level. Sorry you feel bad about the four missionaries. Stay tuned, there will certainly be more in the future. Secondly, international coalitions for military purposes don’t happen overnight or without serious long-term planning and commitment from the actors. WRT the scope of the issue in question, it just ain’t happenin’. Not even on the State Dept. radar screen. Not even close. Small potatoes, in the big scheme of things. Having said that, as we heard from toofs, it _is_ on the plate. Something _is_ being done. In fact, _way_ more than only a few years ago. But there’s only so many SF units and guys to go around. They are in very high demand all over the world with currently deployed dwell times approaching 2-to-1 for some of the more low density high-demand types. So their taskings are not going to be arbitrarily shifted to Somalia hunting pirates any time soon - not absent increased funding to expand their entire infrastructure from recruiting to weapons procurement and everything in between. That ain’t coming any time soon either. That is what I understand. I also understand you seem to be reality-challenged. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/43 "2011-02-22T19:06:11Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > In short, they are there anyway and barring something else that needs blowing up then seems they may as well look for pirates. They are - constantly. Did you see the news this morning? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/44 "2011-02-22T19:12:19Z")
Why not simply pen them in? Gather a multi-national force to bear the expense and drop leaflets on all the ports. Set a series of bouys 30 miles off shore along the coast and make it clear that anyone caught outside of the fishing zone will be assumed to be a pirate and arrested or shot. Want the pen lifted? Then get your shit together, form a proper government and patrol your coast. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/45 "2011-02-22T19:13:50Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I think the most effective response is to sink the pirate’s boats in port-and destroy the port areas. the ones who get to sea should be sunk at sea. > Once the word gets out that Ahmed and Muhammed went out and din’t come back, the attacks will cease. > International law supports this -deadly force in repelling pirates is justified. > Drone attacks would be a cheap way to do this. You realize that invading another country, destroying their ports, ruining their industries and killing their civilians is an act of war, right? Do your remember how well it worked out last time we went to war in Somalia? Do you know how well America’s current wars are going, and how much money they are costing us? Somalia needs it’s fishing industry to be rebuilt, not destroyed leaving more people impoverished and pissed off. You can’t bomb people into deciding to play along with your international order. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/46 "2011-02-22T19:14:23Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Are we willing to “hunt, identify and destroy” illegal Chinese factory trawlers and illegal Italian waste barges? I am. 🙂 But I might be the exception. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/47 "2011-02-22T19:16:00Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Why not simply pen them in? Gather a multi-national force to bear the expense and drop leaflets on all the ports. Set a series of bouys 30 miles off shore along the coast and make it clear that anyone caught outside of the fishing zone will be assumed to be a pirate and arrested or shot. Want the pen lifted? Then get your shit together, form a proper government and patrol your coast. Proposal does not include a magic fairy unicorn pony for all children. Please rectify. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/48 "2011-02-22T19:18:40Z")
> [@Agnostic\_Pagan](#): > > That known dangerous area is too fucking big and keeps expanding. You close it down to all shipping and give up on using the Suez canal until Somalia somehow stops being a failed state? Incidentally, I hear that Russia is in the process of or is planning to refurbish and double up the Transsiberian Railway to expand its use as a cargo route from East Asia to Europe, partly for this reason. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/49 "2011-02-22T19:49:49Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > No. I’ll tell you what I understand, which is also by coincidence, what I believe you do not understand. Firstly, the Somalia pirate problem, despite being a real heart-string tugger for today’s multimedia-enabled Internet-connected news readers, is but a tiny sideshow in the current U.S. foreign policy brochure. That is it’s real honest-to-goodness logistical and budgetary perspective. It’s just nowhere near the top of the priority list in competition for scarce resources at the national level. Sorry you feel bad about the four missionaries. Stay tuned, there will certainly be more in the future. You are not impressing me with your reading comprehension. Keep railing on about US foreign policy - this is a global issue. Every fucking country in the world depends upon the Suez, and how much longer will it be a viable route if the status quo continues? Think that won’t have any affect on the economic recovery if everyone has to sail around Africa? And I started this damn thread because it is not at the top of the priority list - and damn well needs to be. If this incident is not sufficient cause, what the fuck will be? 600 nationals being held hostage while we piss about in Afghanistan looking for a fucker that is probably long dead. Trying to build a state in the middle of fucking nowhere (no offense to Afghanis, but that is exactly where they are), ignoring the failed state that is causing more disruption to world trade and peoples lives than Al-Qaeda has managed to ever since we entered that country. I already took blame in the OP for letting it sit on the bottom of my priority list, for one, because I thought that these big bad fucking navies had a handle on the problem - and they obviously fucking don’t. > [@](#): > > Secondly, international coalitions for military purposes don’t happen overnight or without serious long-term planning and commitment from the actors. WRT the scope of the issue in question, it just ain’t happenin’. Not even on the State Dept. radar screen. Not even close. Small potatoes, in the big scheme of things. And have you read a single fucking cite posted? This is on their radar. [Added, Hillary Clinton is addresses this right now]. An international coalition has been formed, but it needs to be ramped up seriously, or our grandchildren will be reading the same damn stories. It’s one thing to be in a fifty year stalemate with the likes of North Korea who is backed by China. There is no excuse for allowing this to go on that long, and it will be if the only patrol we send is fucking squadron of 5 - 10 ships. It already has gone on for over a decade. While we have pissed away how much money chasing boogeymen in Iraq and Afghanistan while ignoring the real threat. How the hell did Somalia become a superpower strong enough to fight off the combined navies of the world? With fucking speedboats and AK-47s? > [@](#): > > That is what I understand. I also understand you seem to be reality-challenged. And I understand that you have offered no numbers, no hard facts on why a blockade could not be implemented, but appear to be content with the status quo, so as I also stated in the OP - “and anyone who thinks the status quo is fine - go fuck yourselves.” Offer some hard facts, not just bitching about supposed logistics and budget constraints, or piss the hell off. **even sven** , I think this would be beneficial for Somalia as well. Let the fleet protect the fishing areas for Somali boats, and allow them to earn their traditional living. As it stands, they have no reason to support a strong government there, since this industry is far more lucrative. And in further reading, we are using convoys to ensure food shipments reach Somalia ports. But everything is ad hoc. Without a global, comprehensive approach, including helping the UN restore a legitimate government to that area, we will be having this debate for a long, long time to come. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/50 "2011-02-22T19:59:56Z")
> [@Agnostic\_Pagan](#): > > And have you read a single fucking cite posted? This is on their radar. [Added, Hillary Clinton is addresses this right now]. Certainly! As is her sworn duty. Can’t wait to hear how that “international coalition” on the prate problem works out. I bet they are planning a conference for the fall right now. Maybe even get NATO involved. Hooweee! :rolleyes: I am on the contrary, quite impressed with your reality-challenged version of the molehill man. Kudos! Moron. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/51 "2011-02-22T20:01:46Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Proposal does not include a magic fairy unicorn pony for all children. Please rectify. It doesn’t need a huge blockade with enormous warships, airfleet etc. One or two carriers with a lot of small intercept boats in the area should suffice. After a few dozen boats never come back, the numbers WILL start declining. Start off by concentrating on the problem areas, and then widen out your patrols. Additionally having some support in the area semi- permanently will allow them to act as an escort. No unicorns needed. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/52 "2011-02-22T20:04:43Z")
And why aren’t we recognizing Somaliland? They have got their act together, at least more than the rest of Somalia. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/53 "2011-02-22T20:09:19Z")
Guerilla forces have always been able to bring conventional forces to their knees. You can throw all the money you want at fighting irregular forces, but without some structural changes you are not going to achieve anything except perhaps an extremely costly and temporary abeyance. Somalia is not the only country that borders shipping lanes. If piracy was such a great deal, everyone would do it. But it’s really in Somalia where it is thriving. If we want to fight piracy in Somalia, we need to look at what specifically about Somalia is so conducive to piracy. While a certain demographic (young unemployed men) find piracy lucrative, I imagine most of the country (which is, after all, half women) would rather have steady reliable forms of family income rather than violent unpredictable income that is largely used to purchase alcohol and status items. Anyway, I still maintain that one reason we limit our activities here is that we don’t want to confront the numerous governments- not just Somali pirates- who are doing dirty deeds in the area. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/54 "2011-02-22T20:09:27Z")
Two things. Firstly, I’m rather surprised to see so many of the members of this board wanting to bomb the shit out of the little brown people. And secondly, anyone so fucking stupid as to sail in this area without the necessary weapons deserves everything they get. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/55 "2011-02-22T20:14:34Z")
Hey! Bombing the shit out of the little brown people is one of America’s strengths. You gotta go with what you know. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/56 "2011-02-22T20:19:21Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Hey! Bombing the shit out of the little brown people is one of America’s strengths. You gotta go with what you know. Yeah, that and hysterical reactions to unimportant events. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/57 "2011-02-22T20:43:36Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Proposal does not include a magic fairy unicorn pony for all children. Please rectify. I saw _Escape from New York_. If it can work in a John Carpenter movie, it will work in reality too. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/58 "2011-02-22T20:59:43Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] Hey! Bombing the shit out of the little brown people is one of America’s strengths. You gotta go with what you know. [/QUOTE] I don’t understand the prejudice implied here. I mean, why do they have to be ‘little’? Have you got something against short people, brown or otherwise?? 😛 (As for the rest, that’s part of comparative advantage. We specialize in blowing the crap out of people, big or little, fat or thin, brown or yellow or any other shade. It’s what Tiggers do best) -XT ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/59 "2011-02-22T21:05:52Z")
I second the desire to bring back the Q ships. They don’t have to be on the same level - just something that puts a few protected belt-fed 50 cals where they can turn a pirate ship into swiss cheese. Some are asking why you would sail there. Please look at a map. If you wish to take a boat from Europe to India - you sail there. Rounding South Africa sucks, is dangerous, takes a long time, etc. That is why you take the Suez canal and go through this zone. As to arming ships - a lot of ports don’t like it when you sail in with guns. Carrying much beyond a single-shot rifle can get you into hot water in many parts of the world. We would need to get international law adjusted to allow for the arming of more merchant ships to help them protect themselves. If not, you could find yourself fighting off pirates and then being arrested at your next port of call. Some nations are responding - last year the Saudis changed to allow you to have firearms when you come into port - but you have to declare them and seal them while in Saudi waters. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222/60 "2011-02-22T21:26:41Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Two things. Firstly, I’m rather surprised to see so many of the members of this board wanting to bomb the shit out of the little brown people. And secondly, anyone so fucking stupid as to sail in this area without the necessary weapons deserves everything they get. I no longer give a flying frack about these poxy countries, including Afghanistan. If they want to start something they csnnot finish that is their lookout. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hell-do-we-have-navies/572222.md?page=4)