# Why the hostility towards states that want to secede? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2012, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174 "2012-11-16T10:33:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/201 "2012-11-16T21:21:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And we’re hearing about it again after the re-election of a black president. What a crazy coincidence that is. I don’t think that has much to do with it. I heard similar secession and “moving to Canada” complaints back when Fascist Bush won his second term. I think people are so sure that their view points are Right that they are dismayed when someone else wins the election. BabaBooey’s assumed candidate (Johnson) barely made a scratch. The emotional response is that everybody else is a moron (or doesn’t care about freedom) and they must be excised from the electorate. The libertarian way to do that is to secede. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/202 "2012-11-16T21:40:41Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > First of all, I don’t think LA would get too ridiculous on social issues. Second, and most importantly, why not let them? Again, it’s not difficult at all to move from one state to another. Any dumbass religious law would hurt the state. And third, do you believe that every state would enact similar intolerant laws? Absolutely not; however, the FedGov can affect everyone in the nation with one dumbass decision (something they do frequently). It’s easy to move from one state to another _because they’re all parts of the same country._ Even in the most optimistic secession scenarios, moving between states that are still part of the US, and states that have seceded, will be substantially more difficult, if not de facto impossible. Oppressive governments are not well known for making it easy for their citizens to leave. East Germany didn’t build the Berlin Wall to keep people _out._ That aside, it’s interesting that you endorse the right to secession over the election of a moderate centrist president, but your response to what would without questions be a vastly more violent and intolerant environment towards minority groups in those regions is, “Well, they can just move somewhere else.” Double standard, much? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/203 "2012-11-16T21:46:02Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > maybe i’m wrong about Ron Paul, but my take on that guy is that he is, _finally_, a politician who sticks to his principles. We’ve had this discussion in other threads and I don’t want to hijack this one, but I wouldn’t agree with that. > [@Deeg](#): > > I heard similar secession and “moving to Canada” complaints back when Fascist Bush won his second term. I think people are so sure that their view points are Right that they are dismayed when someone else wins the election. Lots of people think that way, yes. I don’t remember much of that in 2000 or 2004, but thanks to Google I can see at least a few people were spouting that kind of nonsense at the time. There was much more “I’m out of here” than “let’s secede.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/204 "2012-11-16T21:58:31Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s easy to move from one state to another _because they’re all parts of the same country._ It’s a little strange that this requires so much explaining. > [@BabaBooey](#): > > But that’s just LA. That’s just one of 50 states. Why not let the experiment engulf all states? That’s the kind of life I want: engulfed in an experiment in a splintering country. Sounds great. Seriously, the biggest reason “why not” is the fact that nobody wants it. That much should be obvious. Am I supposed to treat this as a serious issue because a few people online signed a petition? Nobody’s putting his money where his mouth is, and nobody will. No states have actually put forth this idea, and none will. > [@](#): > > OK? Again how does eliminating the federal government change any of that? You’re still ducking the question. You’ve said this proposal would bring about more freedom. It’s possible it would bring about more economic and personal freedom; even if we take the economic part for granted it appears like the result would actually be substantially _less_ freedom for a lot of people in your “country” (not you, though!). But they could move, maybe… or if not, let’s criticize the federal government again instead of dealing with what looks like a major flaw in your own idea. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/205 "2012-11-16T22:01:03Z")
I’m against secession because I think the framework provided by the Constitution as it was _originally intended_ was pretty damn good. The compromise on slavery was the only major flaw I can find with it. With the addition of the 13-15 amendment, i think we have a pretty good document. There is no reason for the federal government to usurp more power than is expressly granted by the Constitution in its present form, but it continues to do so. ( please don’t argue the court has validated all of the fed govt’s usurpations because its BS) Those calling for secession have keenly recognized that the US Constitution has failed. In my opinion the best redress is nullification of any and all extraconstitutional laws. Secession in the Civil War allowed for the Union to use patriotism to fight the “rebels”. Most people, even critics of secession, can recognize that the people of a state have a right to govern themselves. Secession is a much tougher sell than nullification. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/206 "2012-11-16T22:07:40Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Most people, even critics of secession, can recognize that the people of a state have a right to govern themselves. Secession is a much tougher sell than nullification. But they _do_ have the right to govern themselves. We govern ourselves through the Federal government. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/207 "2012-11-16T22:54:46Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > But they _do_ have the right to govern themselves. We govern ourselves through the Federal government. The federal government has enumerated powers. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/208 "2012-11-16T23:17:33Z")
And? We still govern ourselves via the Federal government. The enumerated powers are part of that self-government. ---
**Author:** ![Deegeea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Deegeea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deegeea)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/209 "2012-11-17T00:12:03Z")
I’m just trying to figure out how a weak Federal government in the proposed reformed USA where states can enact any law they want as long as they let anyone who wants to leave, leave, can enforce this policy of making sure anyone who’s been enslaved can leave the state. Would you need an office in every town in the slave states with a Federal official who goes door to door and interviews slaves to find out if any of them feel like leaving, and if they do, provides them transportation? Without Federal taxes, how do you pay these officials enough to keep them from being coopted by the slaveowners? I don’t think it even seems possible. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/210 "2012-11-17T00:35:47Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I don’t think that has much to do with it. I heard similar secession and “moving to Canada” complaints back when Fascist Bush won his second term. > [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t remember much of that in 2000 or 2004, but thanks to Google I can see at least a few people were spouting that kind of nonsense at the time. There was much more “I’m out of here” than “let’s secede.” I do remember a lot of loose “moving to Canada” talk, but zero secession talk from that election. YMMV. > [@Deeg](#): > > I think people are so sure that their view points are Right that they are dismayed when someone else wins the election. Word. > [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > maybe i’m wrong about Ron Paul, but my take on that guy is that he is, _finally_, a politician who sticks to his principles. Maybe. But one thing we’ve learned time and again is that it’s _easy_ to stand on high principle when you’re so far outside the majority you have no chance of winning. It’s when you’re _close_, when you can _smell_ a victory, that the temptation to shift _just enough_ to tip the balance rises and rises until it becomes overwhelming. And then, once you’ve given something up to get within reach of victory, it would be a damned shame to have given that up _and still lose_. So now you’re invested in victory, at a small price, and a little _more_ compromise would ensure it wasn’t wasted. And thus does “a small price” become “at any price.” Certainly Ron Paul (or any other apparently committed person) might never do that. But he’s never scented victory. I don’t think we know – I don’t think _Ron Paul_ knows – how far he’d go if he did. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/211 "2012-11-17T00:38:53Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > And? We still govern ourselves via the Federal government. The enumerated powers are part of that self-government. Oooook…what makes you think I have a problem with all citizens of the US having a say in how the powers enumerated to the federal government are carried out? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/212 "2012-11-17T00:41:03Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I do remember a lot of loose “moving to Canada” talk, but zero secession talk from that election. YMMV. > > Word. > > Maybe. But one thing we’ve learned time and again is that it’s _easy_ to stand on high principle when you’re so far outside the majority you have no chance of winning. > > It’s when you’re _close_, when you can _smell_ a victory, that the temptation to shift _just enough_ to tip the balance rises and rises until it becomes overwhelming. > > And then, once you’ve given something up to get within reach of victory, it would be a damned shame to have given that up _and still lose_. So now you’re invested in victory, at a small price, and a little _more_ compromise would ensure it wasn’t wasted. > > And thus does “a small price” become “at any price.” > > Certainly Ron Paul (or any other apparently committed person) might never do that. But he’s never scented victory. I don’t think we know – I don’t think _Ron Paul_ knows – how far he’d go if he did. You do realize he won like a dozen congressional races, right? ---
**Author:** ![Robb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/213 "2012-11-17T00:48:33Z")
I’m a bit fuzzy on my US history, but I seem to recall the United States of America made something called the Louisiana Purchase. When did the state of Louisiana buy its offshore oil from the USA? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/214 "2012-11-17T00:52:34Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You do realize he won like a dozen congressional races, right? I’m sorry, I thought we were discussing the presidency. Do _you_ in turn, realize that congressional districts can be gerrymandered to permit victory by relatively extremist positions? With a good computer, a couple of sharp interns, and a case of Red Bull, you can probably redistrict a moon hoaxer into Congress after a few nights of intense work. Even if you don’t admit that, a Congresscritter is (at most) 1/435th of a US President. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/215 "2012-11-17T01:03:35Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We’ve had this discussion in other threads and I don’t want to hijack this one, but I wouldn’t agree with that. > > Lots of people think that way, yes. I don’t remember much of that in 2000 or 2004, but thanks to Google I can see at least a few people were spouting that kind of nonsense at the time. There was much more “I’m out of here” than “let’s secede.” You don’t remember the Jesusland maps? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/216 "2012-11-17T01:07:33Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > The Civil War started from similar conditions, with the (obviously) massive wild card of slavery. Don’t be so sure about that. [There’s a reason why the states you’re talking about were at the heart of the Confederacy](http://www.alternet.org/election-2012/forget-red-vs-blue-its-slave-states-vs-free-states-2012?paging=off). > [@](#): > > Anything that increases the bargaining power of Southern workers vs. Southern employers must be opposed, in the interest of the South’s regional economic development model. Unions, federal wage and workplace regulations, and a generous, national welfare state all increase the bargaining power of Southern workers, by reducing their economic desperation. Anti-union right-to-work laws, state control of wages and workplace regulations, and an inadequate welfare state all make Southern workers more helpless, pliant and dependent on the mercy of their employers. A weak welfare state also maximizes the dependence of ordinary Southerners on the tax-favored clerical allies of the local Southern ruling class, the Protestant megachurches, whose own lucrative business model is to perform welfare functions that are performed by public agencies elsewhere, like child care. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/217 "2012-11-17T01:20:57Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I’m sorry, I thought we were discussing the presidency. Do _you_ in turn, realize that congressional districts can be gerrymandered to permit victory by relatively extremist positions? With a good computer, a couple of sharp interns, and a case of Red Bull, you can probably redistrict a moon hoaxer into Congress after a few nights of intense work. > > Even if you don’t admit that, a Congresscritter is (at most) 1/435th of a US President. Of course I realize the districts can be gerrymandered. Do you realize it would have been easier for him to compromise his principles when party leadership attempted to oust him in the mid 90s by backing a moderate opponent? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/218 "2012-11-17T01:27:02Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I’m sorry, I thought we were discussing the presidency. Do _you_ in turn, realize that congressional districts can be gerrymandered to permit victory by relatively extremist positions? With a good computer, a couple of sharp interns, and a case of Red Bull, you can probably redistrict a moon hoaxer into Congress after a few nights of intense work. > > Even if you don’t admit that, a Congresscritter is (at most) 1/435th of a US President. Of course I realize the districts can be gerrymandered. Do you realize it would have been easier for him to compromise his principles when party leadership attempted to oust him in the mid 90s by backing a moderate opponent? Also, if you think a man is some sort of fraction of another man, you would have been a good compromiser at the founding and secession should be within your purview. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/219 "2012-11-17T01:51:00Z")
Apologies if it’s been linked to before, but [This Cracked article](http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/why-E28098anti-obama-states-secede21E28099-story-lie/?wa_user1=1&wa_user2=News&wa_user3=quickfix&wa_user4=companion) explains the matter more clearly than anything i could write. Summary: Nothing is happening. Well, OK, a few people are venting, but that’s it. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/220 "2012-11-17T02:37:55Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > What would be the difference between a state like Texas seeking independence from a bloated government (in this case, the US FedGov) and the colonies seeking freedom from the oppressive British government? It just saddens me to see that so few give a single fuck about social or economic freedom anymore. To paraphrase a man whom you probably don’t like: “The 1860s called. They want their logic back.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174.md?page=12)