# Why the hostility towards states that want to secede? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2012, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174 "2012-11-16T10:33:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/221 "2012-11-17T02:40:20Z")
Of course, one of the biggest realities is that [there aren’t actually any states that can fairly be categorized as anti-Obama, pro-secessionist states](http://www.flickr.com/photos/idvsolutions/8182119174/sizes/k/in/photostream/). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Niply\_Elder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@The\_Niply\_Elder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Niply_Elder)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/222 "2012-11-17T17:19:09Z")
Since the OP hasnt provided any specifics regarding how the USSEC would compensate the FedGov for its property, nor what fraction of the national debt would they be responsible for, I will venture a guess: the OP doesnt want secesion, he just doesnt want to pitch in to pay back the national debt. But we can have that “economic” freedom now: we can just default on our entire debt, and be done with it. Or we can repatriate the assets of the top 10 or 20 megabanks and pay back the balance with that. Of course this would wreak havoc around the world, probably for decades. But going back to the secesion argument and the fair share of the national debt: assigning them proportional to population is way too generous. It should also be adjusted for natural resource worth, since arguably our military expenditures exist to maintain our natural resources safe. I mean its not fair that a state like Nebraska that is a barren sagebrush wasteland, should pay for the protection of a resource now wholly owned by another country. Somebody should actually do the math, but i suspect its going to be in the several trillions. Also, question: what will happen to all the seniors on social security? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/223 "2012-11-17T17:28:13Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You don’t remember the Jesusland maps? I remember them as satire on the South, not an actual call for secession. People also circulated columns about the United Kingdom re-absorbing the U.S., but nobody wanted that to happen. But I’m acknowledging that there were some liberals who talked about secession during the Bush years. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/224 "2012-11-17T20:11:01Z")
When the secessionists recite The Pledge of Allegiance, what word do they say after “_Under God_”? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/225 "2012-11-17T20:27:29Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > When the secessionists recite The Pledge of Allegiance, what word do they say after “_Under God_”? They don’t recite that nationalistic pablum. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/226 "2012-11-17T20:43:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’re trying to change the subject. You were arguing that an independent Louisiana probably wouldn’t do anything “too ridiculous,” but the ban on sodomy would come back in force, abortion would quickly be banned, a possible Supreme Court ruling on same-sex marriage in the U.S. would be ignored, and church-state separation would likely be weakened. So please explain what makes you think nothing “too ridiculous” would happen? Do you think marijuana would be totally or partially legalized, as it has in a bunch of Northern states but not Louisiana? **Really Not All That Bright** posted some other good examples. > > But you’re proposing that the states would be independent countries, are you not? Agreed. It sounds to me like the Republic of Louisiana would rapidly create a fundamentalist Christian nation, which doesn’t seem too far away from a fundamentalist Islam nation like Saudi Arabia or Iran, except they’d allow women to drive and wouldn’t be into stoning or beheading. (And to be fair, Louisiana probably wouldn’t enforce the death penalty for homosexuality either, but making consensual homosexual relations illegal is bad enough). ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/227 "2012-11-17T22:40:59Z")
I wonder how many people are going to move to Colorado or Washington now that they’re legalized pot? I don’t think people generally do or would pull up stakes and move to a different state just to live under a slightly different set of laws. People relocate for jobs or climate, etc. but most of the time they stay where they’ve put down roots. Seceded state governments will still be large impersonal bureaucracies with lots of costly responsibilities and their populations will still be politically and ethnically diverse. The Several States aren’t really about “choices” but to some extent about not trusting outsiders. But left their own devices the differences probably won’t add up to enough to trigger a mass internal exodus. OTOH, poor people do sometimes move to states with more generous welfare policies, and large business sometimes relocate to a state with lower taxes. But the average person but the average person is neither, so philosophy and a $200 a year tax cut isn’t enough incentive. What’s more, you get a “race to the bottom” as states compete to keep out the poor and bribe businesses with the result being worse conditions overall. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/228 "2012-11-19T07:42:47Z")
i guess if the OP thinks credence is owed to the secession petitions, credence is owed to [this](https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/deport-everyone-signed-petition-withdraw-their-state-united-states-america/dmQl1bXL)one as well. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/229 "2012-11-19T12:01:02Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > i guess if the OP thinks credence is owed to the secession petitions, credence is owed to [this](https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/deport-everyone-signed-petition-withdraw-their-state-united-states-america/dmQl1bXL)one as well. Oh, that’s the one that petitions to “Deport Everyone That Signed A Petition To Withdraw Their State From The United States Of America”. I’m all for it. I signed it. It needed only 500 more votes to reach the threshold of 25.000 that the origional petition had. I signed it while Dutch, once more proving that such petitions only need an email address, no matter if from within the USA or abroad. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/230 "2012-11-19T13:29:32Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Of course I realize the districts can be gerrymandered. Do you realize it would have been easier for him to compromise his principles when party leadership attempted to oust him in the mid 90s by backing a moderate opponent? > > Also, if you think a man is some sort of fraction of another man, you would have been a good compromiser at the founding and secession should be within your purview. This is a terrible comeback. You’ve all but conceded I was right. Gerrymandering, which you admit to, demolishes your apparent point that extremists are probably electable without altering their positions. That’s not some obscure point I’m making either. You seem to be thinking I am attacking Ron Paul for some sort of weakness. Nope, I’m just pointing out that he’s in a place politically where it’s unlikely we’ll know how uncompromising he is, and there are thousands of examples of politicians disappointing their more extreme followers. It’s unlikely that Paul will stay his course if he gets close to a majority – but it’s **absolutely certain** that _you don’t know_, because his rhetoric can’t be used to predict actual future behavior. And your reply to the 1/435th comment is just sad. Did you not understand what I meant? ---
**Author:** ![ed\_anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbce88/32.png) [@ed\_anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed_anger)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/231 "2012-11-19T15:13:09Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > As of now, each of the U.S.'s 50 states have filed a petition for secession, with great fluctuation in the intensity of desire. Didn’t we have that war already? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/232 "2012-11-19T16:02:08Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > As of now, each of the U.S.'s 50 states have filed a petition for secession, with great fluctuation in the intensity of desire. And we are still waiting for the other 7. In reality, however, no states have filed a petition for secession. All that is, is people filing a token protest over the idiocy of electing Obama for a second term. No states are going to secede. Although, I gotta admit…it’s nice to daydream about it. What would be the result if one or more states could secede? Interesting conjecture topic. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/233 "2012-11-19T17:36:11Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The Republicans lost. Get over it. > [@BabaBooey](#): > > Thanks for reading the entire thread, in particular my own personal posts in this thead. The timing of this thread makes it a little difficult to swallow that you personally really want to secede, just on principle, and regardless of the outcome. It’s too late now, but if you wanted people to believe that about you, you would have expressed that desire MONTHS ago. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/234 "2012-11-19T17:50:22Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > This is a terrible comeback. You’ve all but conceded I was right. Right about what? Did you have a point to make? I didn’t realize we were having a debate on this, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/235 "2012-11-19T18:11:32Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > I’m working my ass off to become an EE, but I’ll still never be one of the top income earners in the US. So it goes. > > _Posted 11/16/2012 0603AM_– **kd99** > [@BabaBooey](#): > > I’m an EE. I would be in demand anywhere. I’m talking everyday Joe. > > _Posted 11/16/2012 0632AM_– **kd99** _That_ was fast. Wow, when you work your ass off, you don’t fuck around, do you? Seriously, WELL DONE! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/236 "2012-11-19T18:14:20Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Stop using the word “FedGov” if you don’t want to look like an idiot. Problem is, it’s not really a word. Let me fix that for you : _Stop using the **character string** “FedGov” as though it were a word if you don’t want to look like an idiot._ ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/237 "2012-11-19T20:45:59Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > You love your country so much that you’re willing to kill someone that wants no part of it? You sound like a neocon warhawk. Have you ever heard of Abraham Lincoln? > [@Sailboat](#): > > It’s worth noting that a core Northern position during the Civil War could be described as “secession is the last resort of frustrated tyrants.” > > Before the war the South had disproportionately more influence in national politics than can be accounted for by its population – and that’s WITH the artificial boost to population the 3/5ths compromise gave them; it was even _worse_ if one discounts the slaves, who of course merely padded the Southern headcount for determining representation without having any voice at all. > > The South had dominated national politics pretty much since the Founding, and got its way in every compromise regarding slavery. What drove Secession was the election of Lincoln, who was openly against the _expansion_ of slavery and (despite his own protestations to the contrary) perceived to be hostile to slavery’s _existence_. > > When the Southern states started to secede, many Northerners had an epiphany of sorts: if the South was willing to be in a Union _that it dominated_, but _unwilling_ to be in a Union where the _other_ side got a turn, it had _never_ really been in a democracy, because that **requires** sometimes not having the upper hand, sometimes not holding the presidency or Congress, but still _participating even though everything is not exactly the way you want it_. > People who only play the game when they’re winning…but want to quit, take the ball the Federal government has paid for, and go home when they’re behind, were never really playing in the first place – they were only pretending to play, presumably to keep up an appearance of fairness while they got their way. > > People and states who want to quit when they’re momentarily behind…because they _can’t tolerate_ the other side getting a turn in the catbird seat…are not just sore losers; they’re showing they have the mentality of tyrants – they have to be in charge or there will be no country, dammit! Hrmm. Good post. I never thought of it that way, the civil war makes a LOT more sense to me now. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/238 "2012-11-19T20:56:35Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > When the Southern states started to secede, many Northerners had an epiphany of sorts: if the South was willing to be in a Union _that it dominated_, but _unwilling_ to be in a Union where the _other_ side got a turn, it had _never_ really been in a democracy, because that **requires** sometimes not having the upper hand, sometimes not holding the presidency or Congress, but still _participating even though everything is not exactly the way you want it_. I read an article in the past year or so – was it in Salon? – that asserted that this is what is happening now with Southern outrage against the federal government. They’re not willing to be part of a democratic system in which they might lose. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/239 "2012-11-19T21:52:23Z")
> [@IClaudius](#): > > Because it’s a totally ridiculous tantrum brought on by a childish sense of pique from team Republican . . . Wait, what?! **Republicans** pro- **secession?!** What would Lincoln say (other than, “Let me out of this box!”)?! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174.md?page=11)