# Why the hostility towards states that want to secede? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2012, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174 "2012-11-16T10:33:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/101 "2012-11-16T15:42:55Z")
And good luck dealing with the next major hurricane with no US Gov’t support. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/102 "2012-11-16T15:44:28Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > Are you fucking serious? Someone in this thread said he would be happy to join the military and kill me and my fellow LA citizens if we were to secede, and I’m the one that needs to tone it down? In all fairness, you are advocating treason. In most countries, that’s the most harshly penalized crime of all. ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/103 "2012-11-16T15:45:31Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > It doesn’t work like that. There is a global market for oil. > > Say the Gulf Coast states secede and take their oil with them. They still have to sell it _somewhere_, and that would add to the world’s supply of oil in the same way it does when they sell it now. So supply would be unchanged, and there’s no reason to believe demand would be affected, either. > > So the rest of the U.S. might not buy the same set of barrels of oil, but we’d buy about the same amount and at about the same price, whether or not the Gulf Coast states seceded. And we’d find someone else to buy it. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/104 "2012-11-16T15:46:34Z")
It’s worth noting that a core Northern position during the Civil War could be described as “secession is the last resort of frustrated tyrants.” Before the war the South had disproportionately more influence in national politics than can be accounted for by its population – and that’s WITH the artificial boost to population the 3/5ths compromise gave them; it was even _worse_ if one discounts the slaves, who of course merely padded the Southern headcount for determining representation without having any voice at all. The South had dominated national politics pretty much since the Founding, and got its way in every compromise regarding slavery. What drove Secession was the election of Lincoln, who was openly against the _expansion_ of slavery and (despite his own protestations to the contrary) perceived to be hostile to slavery’s _existence_. When the Southern states started to secede, many Northerners had an epiphany of sorts: if the South was willing to be in a Union _that it dominated_, but _unwilling_ to be in a Union where the _other_ side got a turn, it had _never_ really been in a democracy, because that **requires** sometimes not having the upper hand, sometimes not holding the presidency or Congress, but still _participating even though everything is not exactly the way you want it_. People who only play the game when they’re winning…but want to quit, take the ball the Federal government has paid for, and go home when they’re behind, were never really playing in the first place – they were only pretending to play, presumably to keep up an appearance of fairness while they got their way. People and states who want to quit when they’re momentarily behind…because they _can’t tolerate_ the other side getting a turn in the catbird seat…are not just sore losers; they’re showing they have the mentality of tyrants – they have to be in charge or there will be no country, dammit! ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/105 "2012-11-16T15:47:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > In all fairness, you are advocating treason. In most countries, that’s the most harshly penalized crime of all. And there are countries that would stone two dudes for banging each other, doesn’t mean it’s right. Do you think I should be hung for what I’ve said? If not, why bring it up? ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/106 "2012-11-16T15:47:36Z")
You’re acting like the husband who suddenly divorces his wife when he realizes he just won the lottery. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/107 "2012-11-16T15:49:42Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > It’s worth noting that a core Northern position during the Civil War could be described as “secession is the last resort of frustrated tyrants.” > > Before the war the South had disproportionately more influence in national politics than can be accounted for by its population – and that’s WITH the artificial boost to population the 3/5ths compromise gave them; it was even _worse_ if one discounts the slaves, who of course merely padded the Southern headcount for determining representation without having any voice at all. > > The South had dominated national politics pretty much since the Founding, and got its way in every compromise regarding slavery. What drove Secession was the election of Lincoln, who was openly against the _expansion_ of slavery and (despite his own protestations to the contrary) perceived to be hostile to slavery’s _existence_. > > When the Southern states started to secede, many Northerners had an epiphany of sorts: if the South was willing to be in a Union _that it dominated_, but _unwilling_ to be in a Union where the _other_ side got a turn, it had _never_ really been in a democracy, because that **requires** sometimes not having the upper hand, sometimes not holding the presidency or Congress, but still _participating even though everything is not exactly the way you want it_. > People who only play the game when they’re winning…but want to quit, take the ball the Federal government has paid for, and go home when they’re behind, were never really playing in the first place – they were only pretending to play, presumably to keep up an appearance of fairness while they got their way. > > People and states who want to quit when they’re momentarily behind…because they _can’t tolerate_ the other side getting a turn in the catbird seat…are not just sore losers; they’re showing they have the mentality of tyrants – they have to be in charge or there will be no country, dammit! Winning Post! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/108 "2012-11-16T15:51:14Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > You’re acting like the husband who suddenly divorces his wife when he realizes he just won the lottery. Again, attack the arguments, not the poster. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/109 "2012-11-16T15:51:14Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > And there are countries that would stone two dudes for banging each other, doesn’t mean it’s right. Do you think I should be hung for what I’ve said? If not, why bring it up? Well, I’m not about to join the Army to keep some backwater in the Union, no. That doesn’t mean I don’t understand why people are upset about what you’re posting. ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/110 "2012-11-16T15:52:12Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > And good luck dealing with the next major hurricane with no US Gov’t support. OH NO, WHAT WOULD NOLA DO WITHOUT THE LOWER 9TH!?!?! I’m against pretty much federal everything, including money dedicated towards NOLA (or any place) after a natural disaster. Insurance costs should reflect the risks, and state government should enforce any laws requiring insurance companies holding certain amounts of money. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/111 "2012-11-16T15:57:41Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Again, attack the arguments, not the poster. Oh. Sorry. My point, stated better (I hope): If Louisiana wants to secede because now suddenly they have access to Gulf Oil (something they did NOT have access to for the past 200 years), then they would be acting like a husband who suddenly divorces his wife when he finds he has won the lottery. Forget everything that the wife has done for the husband for the past 200 years, the husband now has the winning lottery ticket and doesn’t need the wife’s help anymore, so why not dump her? As a society, we don’t allow this to happen in divorces (the husband would have to share). The same would be true for states that benefitted from the Union, but then try to selfishly leave when new opportunities arise. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/112 "2012-11-16T15:57:43Z")
Throwing out a couple of problems here: the residents of New Orleans might outvote you on the ' **BabaBooey** to New Orleans: drop dead" idea. I think you misunderstand how the global oil market works, and that perhaps you’re not considering the possibility that Texas will invade Louisiana and take its oil. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/113 "2012-11-16T16:01:35Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > Which I found both saddening and terrifying. > > It would be exactly as it is now socially with (probably) the exception of abortion. Unlike the FedGov (LOL I’M AN IDIOT!), Louisiana had a $130m surplus last year ([Politics | News from The Advocate](http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2012/09/louisiana_expected_to_see_130.html)) as opposed to the US’s ~$1 trillion deficit. If we were to keep the oil reserves that are reasonably close to us (the FedGov considers anything more than 4 miles away from our coast to be national waters, despite drilling in those areas having an effect on the LA environment), we would be in even better shape. In 2005, Louisiana citizens and corporations paid almost $21B in federal taxes and received more than $39B in federal spending. And your share of the national debt (based on population) is $238B. Your $130M surplus exists solely because of federal subsidies. The FedGov also employs about 50,000 people in Louisiana. Can’t have that, so you’ll have to find them other jobs or lose that tax base (and I’m betting that fed jobs pay much better than the median income in LA). The fed considers waters within 200 miles of the coast to be exclusive territory, but an independent LA is out of luck - your 200 mile territory is almost entirely within the 200 mile limits of MS and TX, and we’re not ceding that. Tough luck. Oh, and the oil industry provides about 17% of LA’s jobs, so your employment numbers are going to take a hit while you shift your economy into something feasible. Tourism’s gonna take a hit, with customs and everything. You can forget New Orleans as a convention city - organizers aren’t going to want to add international stuff to the list of everything they already deal with. The port of New Orleans is important, but Mobile and Houston can pick up the slack. And you can bluster all you want about shutting down the Mississippi, but how are you planning to do that? You don’t have a navy or an army (the National Guard is part of the FedGov). Are the state police going to pull over ships? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/114 "2012-11-16T16:03:09Z")
Given the entire issue of Mississippi river shippage of farm products and gulf ports, there is exactly zero chance we would ever allow Louisiana to secede. Not ‘unlikely’, not ‘extremely remote’. ZERO. ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/115 "2012-11-16T16:12:11Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Throwing out a couple of problems here: the residents of New Orleans might outvote you on the ' **BabaBooey** to New Orleans: drop dead" idea. I think you misunderstand how the global oil market works, and that perhaps you’re not considering the possibility that Texas will invade Louisiana and take its oil. That’s absurd. Mexico has a shitload of oil, why doesn’t the US just invade them and take it? And people are getting away from the reason that I would POTENTIALLY embrace a state that chooses to secede: I want economic and social freedom. You all can convince yourselves otherwise, but this country is moving away from each of those things. You all have also proven what I suspected, but was afraid of recognizing: most Americans don’t actually support freedom, at least in its true form. They are happy to waive around tiny American flags and yell the word “freedom” aloud, but they’re terrified of the real thing. One person on this forum said that they would suit up and fight against my state if it PEACEFULLY sought such things. A state that would try to separate from a country that has wasted thousands of soldiers lives fighting bullshit wars that are nothing more than unnecessary nation building operations. The people on this site act as if simply questioning the infallible Uncle Sam is no better than spitting in his face. The thread has gotten a bit off of the path I intended it to take, but I’ve learned everything I intended to, and it scares the shit out of me. People that likely consider themselves to be liberal continue to use this “LOLREPUBLICAN” label for me instead of actually addressing the things that I’m claiming is worth seceding over: true freedom, and not the buzzword. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/116 "2012-11-16T16:22:33Z")
How do you figure we’re moving away from social freedom? Last week, there were four electoral victories for gay marriage and two states legalized recreational marijuana use. It might just be me, but that seems like increasing social freedom. [Economic freedom](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_freedom) is a nebulous concept with no single accepted definition. You may know exactly what you mean by it (or you may not), but we don’t - can you offer a specific definition? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/117 "2012-11-16T16:24:28Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > That’s absurd. Mexico has a shitload of oil, why doesn’t the US just invade them and take it? Probably because the U.S. has more. If Louisiana claims all the oil in the Gulf - I thought that was what you were suggesting - I can’t help thinking someone else will disagree. Louisiana has 4.5 million people, so I am guessing the other party will be bigger and better armed. > [@](#): > > And people are getting away from the reason that I would POTENTIALLY embrace a state that chooses to secede: I want economic and social freedom. Which is to say you want to be free to participate in a democracy until your opinions get outvoted. That’s the primary reason for the disdain in response to this secession concept (although the way it’s being expressed also contributes): everybody hates sore losers. If you’re unhappy with the state of the government you can leave or work to change it in any number of ways. But there’s no legitimate cause for secession. The idea that democracy is OK when you win but that you should take your ball and go home is pretty contemptible. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/118 "2012-11-16T16:24:51Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > How do you figure we’re moving away from social freedom? I am also very curious to hear the answer to this. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/119 "2012-11-16T16:27:14Z")
holy crap, what a Friday morning GIFT this thread has turned out to be. I am not exaggerating–I just laughed into a coughing fit and had to take a break. whew. thanks everyone. btw \*\*Sailboat \*\*wins the thread. we’ve all said the same thing in various ways, but he wins for eloquence. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/120 "2012-11-16T16:28:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by BabaBooey View Post > Do any of you against secession (essentially everyone in this thread) not see the irony? What would be the difference between a state like Texas seeking independence from a bloated government (in this case, the US FedGov) and the colonies seeking freedom from the oppressive British government? It just saddens me to see that so few give a single fuck about social or economic freedom anymore. I have a very strong suspicion that if Texas became independent you’d find it a hell of a lot less free than it is now. I can’t imagine the Republic of Texas adopting libertarian policies concerning gay marriage, drug use, immigration, abortion, etc. I think you’d get a high speed limit out of it, however, and perhaps really low taxes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174.md?page=7)