# Why the hostility towards states that want to secede? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2012, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174 "2012-11-16T10:33:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/141 "2012-11-16T17:23:08Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > And what did we pay in federal taxes? How much did we contribute to this country considering that we get absolutely fucked in our oil production deal? Do you think that it’s reasonable to give us the $238B bill if we don’t actually owe that much? If you go out for dinner with a group of 5 and get a salad while everyone else gets filet mignon, are you cool with dividing the bill by 5 and paying it? Louisiana gets $1.78 back from the fed for every dollar they pay - if the government would fuck me like that, I’d be a happy man. You got the filet mignon, and California (which contributed $314B and received $260B) got a salad. > [@](#): > > OH NO, WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO WITHOUT OVERPAID FEDERAL WORKERS!?!?! Are you completely oblivious to the fact that, if LA were to secede, that we wouldn’t be paying federal taxes anymore? Here’s the thing that you don’t seem to be getting - it’s not important **who** employs these people, but it is damned important that **somebody** does. When jobs disappear from the state, the people who used to work those jobs don’t. You need to have other jobs for them to move into, provide some kind of social safety net, or let them die. You might be fine with the third option, but not everybody will be. > [@](#): > > Look at this thread again. I’ve never once implied that LA seceding alone would work. It would all have to start with TX, and if they did it, it would spread east to at least Alabama. Florida would be iffy, but I included them in all scenarios. So your 200 mile point would be moot. > > Who said anything about customs? And it’s not like northerners never visit Canada, or south westerners never visit Mexico. You realize that the people visiting Canada and Mexico go through customs, right? Customs is part of international travel - I just assumed your new country would police its borders the same way every other country does. Regardless of your policy, travelers will have to go through customs and immigration to re-enter the US. International travel is a bigger pain in the ass than domestic travel. That’s why more Americans visit Florida than the Bahamas. If you take a travel destination and make it more difficult to visit, tourism’s going to decline. > [@](#): > > I didn’t bluster about except when others were essentially threatening LA. I would not support shutting down the river to free trade, just as I don’t currently support embargoes on Cuba or Iran. You’ve mentioned it multiple times in this thread. You’ve never said how you plan to do it. I don’t think it’s feasible. > [@](#): > > What you’re overlooking in all of this is the entire point of the secession (in my hypothetical situation): economic/social freedom. Take all of the preconceptions that you have, and now add this hypothetical: the entire “United States of the South Eastern Conference” having NO corporate taxes (as opposed to the 15-35% federal corporate tax levels + whatever the state adds on to that), LA having no drug laws (a legit Hamsterdam), plus everything else New Orleans has to offer currently. Gay marriage is also allowed. I know the entire scenario is iffy, but NOLA is a very laissez-faire city (drugs/gay marriage) and the USotSEC would certainly be a fiscally conservative conglomerate. Never gonna happen. Unless you’re the unchallenged dictator in chief of the USSEC, I guess, but we’re talking about the real world. The voters you want to take with you disagree with you just as much as the voters you want to leave behind. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/142 "2012-11-16T17:23:32Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > The point I’m trying to make is, if all states went solo, who gives a shit if LA made abortion or homosexuality illegal? It’s very easy to move from state to state. > [@BabaBooey](#): > > So you are implying that I can easily move from one nation to another? That’s not even remotely the case. … ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/143 "2012-11-16T17:26:03Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > Replace “redneck” with “people darker than a brown paper bag” and you’d fit right on in with all those “rednecks” that you’re so eager to kill. > [@BabaBooey](#): > > OH NO, WHAT WOULD NOLA DO WITHOUT THE LOWER 9TH!?!?! You don’t give a crap about what happens to “those people” yet you have the temerity to attempt that weak-ass analogy previously? ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/144 "2012-11-16T17:27:11Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > That’s fantastic. Before I make my point on the issue, do you support those states’ decisions to legalize gay marriage and recreational marijuana? My opinion is that marriage (gay or straight) is a civil right, and I don’t think any state should be allowed to deny that right to any citizen. Recreational drugs - sure, I’m fine with the states making their own laws. ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/145 "2012-11-16T17:31:43Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > I’m curious to know why you seem to think Oil will be the foundation of Gumbostan’s economy. Love the name. Why wouldn’t oil be the foundation? And it doesn’t have to be a one trick pony. Low corporate taxes would drastically increase the wealth of the region. > [@](#): > > I don’t think you can call yourself a Libertarian if you think that the government should own the means of production… Never said the government would. Even if it did, I wouldn’t support it. I never said Gumbostan would be my ideal country, just a better option. > [@](#): > > Every federal dollar spent in LA (or your SEC) would suddenly disappear. As would every federal tax dollar. Even if the federal taxdollar coming in \> the $ going out, I would happily make the exchange if it meant a balanced budget. > [@](#): > > Plus, you would have to be paying, probably substantially, for things like military bases that happen to be there. The US government is not going to just hand over the land and infrastructure for nothing. Good point. Don’t know what to do there, though I would be completely in favor of a military that is only sufficient enough to defend the land, not strong enough to nation build. > [@](#): > > In addition to this, they would have to suddenly create their own governmental infrastructure to administer things. This costs money. So does the FedGov. As big of a clusterfuck as LA politics is, I think we can handle ourselves better than the FedGov can, considering that we are just one of 50 in their eyes. > [@](#): > > How will they be a viable state with the framework of a 3rd world country in place, economy wise? I don’t really understand this question. > [@](#): > > In addition, you seem to think that these nations, were they to secede, would become some sort of Libertopia. Nope. I’ll never have a Libertopia. Just looking for a better option. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/146 "2012-11-16T17:32:54Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > For the 10th time, I don’t think LA would do it alone. And which of these southeastern states do you believe would NOT be a Christianist, anti-abortion, and anti-homsexuality state on it’s own? Are you confident we wouldn’t see a sudden return of “sundown towns”? I sure ain’t. I trust the Federal Government to protect my rights and the rights of others far, FAR more than the government of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, etc, considering their track record. I’m terrified of giving those states more power. > [@](#): > > The point I’m trying to make is, if all states went solo, who gives a shit if LA made abortion or homosexuality illegal? Presumably a woman trying to get an abortion, or a homosexual person, who lives in Louisiana. > [@](#): > > I say let the states go all out in deciding how they are run. And I say please don’t. You seem to fear the Federal Government. I fear the state governments- especially these states. Over the last 100 years or so, the state (and local) governments have a much, much worse track record with regards to taking away freedoms. > [@](#): > > Look at our presidents and the men running against them over the past 12 years. There’s very little difference between Bush, Obama, Romney, and McCain. This is as laughable as the idea from Nader voters that Gore and Bush were the same. They’re not. > [@](#): > > And these people are making decisions that the entire nation is affected by. People in California and people in Texas are very different. Ditto for Tennessee and New York. Ditto for Florida and Massachusetts. So why not let each of those states run themselves the way they want to (based on whom the citizens of the state select) and give people more choices on how they want to live? Because you run into the exact same problem at the state level- why should people in Baton Rouge be making decisions that affect Alexandrians, or folks in Monroe? Why should people in New Orleans be making decisions that affect those in Kenner? Hell, you can take it too absurd levels- why should eastern Jefferson Parish-people be making decisions that affect people in western Jefferson Parish? I don’t understand at all this great trust and faith in the state and local governments- especially when one looks at their track record. You and me and other Louisianans have the same ability to change policy- vote, advocate, run for office. Same as in other states. When your policies don’t win in the democratic process, that doesn’t mean it’s time to take your bags and go home- it means you need to advocate harder, run for office, get people to vote, etc. ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/147 "2012-11-16T17:33:11Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > My opinion is that marriage (gay or straight) is a civil right, and I don’t think any state should be allowed to deny that right to any citizen. > > Recreational drugs - sure, I’m fine with the states making their own laws. Excellent. I agree with you 100% (well, except for the states denying the right, let them suffer the consequences of their stupid laws). Unfortunately, FedGov does not. [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/08/us/politics/marijuana-laws-eased-in-colorado-and-washington.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/08/us/politics/marijuana-laws-eased-in-colorado-and-washington.html?_r=0) > [@](#): > > In a statement on Wednesday, a spokesman for the Drug Enforcement Agency said the Justice Department was reviewing the ballot measures and declined to comment directly on how officials would respond to them. But he said the agency’s enforcement of federal drug laws “remains unchanged.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/148 "2012-11-16T17:34:54Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > Excellent. I agree with you 100% (well, except for the states denying the right, let them suffer the consequences of their stupid laws). Unfortunately, FedGov does not. For some reason a lot of people feel this law became intolerable right around the beginning of 2009. Interestingly none of the proposed seceding states have legalized medical or recreational marijuana or any other drug, and all of them have passed Constitutional amendments banning same-sex marriage. So… personal freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/149 "2012-11-16T17:36:23Z")
When was the last time a marijuana legalization (or even decriminalization) measure appeared on a Louisiana ballot, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![JQPublic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ac8455/32.png) [@JQPublic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JQPublic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/150 "2012-11-16T17:38:56Z")
Good Luck Bababooey This responses on this site for those of differing opinions is very predictable. I admire your determination. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/151 "2012-11-16T17:40:03Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > I’m working my ass off to become an EE, but I’ll still never be one of the top income earners in the US. So it goes. But I do recognize that those people that you want to raise taxes on are the very people that pay the salaries of many Americans. Ron Paul said it best in his retirement speech: envy (class warfare) and intolerance (gay marriage, drug wars, etc…) are the biggest problems that this nation faces. Just out of curiosity, did you attend a public or private school? How did you pay for it? ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/152 "2012-11-16T17:41:09Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > I would support my state (LA) seceding, and I would strongly considering moving to TX if they seceded and implemented an economic policy that was freer than the current national one (not difficult to do). I am a RINO (registered so as to vote in the R primaries) and I am not conservative. > > Explain please. If you haven’t noticed, the Gulf Coast has ~1.5 metric fucktons of oil that the rest of the country is reliant upon. Then go. Leave. Bye. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/153 "2012-11-16T17:41:13Z")
> [@JQPublic](#): > > Good Luck Bababooey > This responses on this site for those of differing opinions is very predictable. > I admire your determination. Good luck in determining the meaning of this post. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/154 "2012-11-16T17:41:27Z")
> [@JQPublic](#): > > Good Luck Bababooey > This responses on this site for those of differing opinions is very predictable. > I admire your determination. While you are right about many cases, these are responses to someone who has differing _facts_. ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/155 "2012-11-16T17:41:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And which of these southeastern states do you believe would NOT be a Christianist Probably all, though that mostly shows up locally (by county/parish). > [@](#): > > anti-abortion Probably all, which would be one of the unfortunate side-effects of the increased economic freedom. > [@](#): > > and anti-homsexuality No different than it is now, and no different than it is in much of the US, including bleeding heart California. > [@](#): > > I trust the Federal Government to protect my rights and the rights of others far, FAR more than the government of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, etc, considering their track record. I’m terrified of giving those states more power. What about Maine? Or Wisconsin? Or Washington? Or Oregon? Socially, I suspect each of those states (among others) could do a much better job. > [@](#): > > And I say please don’t. You seem to fear the Federal Government. I do. > [@](#): > > I fear the state governments- especially these states. Do you not see the MASSIVE difference? What can I do to avoid the FedGov? If power were returned back to the states, what could you do to avoid StateGov? Think about it for a minute. Now do you see why I feel the way I do? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/156 "2012-11-16T17:42:22Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > Explain please. If you haven’t noticed, the Gulf Coast has ~1.5 metric fucktons of oil that the rest of the country is reliant upon. Ah, so you _were_ saying Louisiana would claim all that oil. Right? The U.S. and the states/countries around Louisiana would disagree. So there is one reason the situation is different from the U.S. and Mexico and more like, say, Iraq and Kuwait. ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/157 "2012-11-16T17:42:31Z")
Stop typing and go. ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/158 "2012-11-16T17:44:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > For some reason a lot of people feel this law became intolerable right around the beginning of 2009. Interestingly none of the proposed seceding states have legalized medical or recreational marijuana or any other drug, and all of them have passed Constitutional amendments banning same-sex marriage. So… personal freedom. No shit? And I support each of those stupid choices. Guess what, though? The FedGov is now fighting the RIGHT decisions by individual states regarding pot use. Return power to the states, and nothing changes with those making bad decisions; however, the states making the RIGHT decisions now have no opposition. Where’s the downside in that? ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/159 "2012-11-16T17:46:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > When was the last time a marijuana legalization (or even decriminalization) measure appeared on a Louisiana ballot, exactly? Never. And I never said LA was some bastion of social liberty (although NOLA would be). How does removing the FedGov from the situation change that for the worse or better? ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/160 "2012-11-16T17:48:32Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > Just out of curiosity, did you attend a public or private school? How did you pay for it? Public school, private loans. I get that public schools are subsidized, but they would also be cheaper if they weren’t. Get the government out of the student loan business, and you force the general studies/art majors out of college. Drop the demand, and the price declines. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174.md?page=9)