# Why the hostility towards states that want to secede? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2012, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174 "2012-11-16T10:33:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/161 "2012-11-16T17:48:41Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > Probably all, which would be one of the unfortunate side-effects of the increased economic freedom. So some increased economic freedom can be acquired, and all you have to give up is large amounts of personal freedom. Sounds fantastic. > [@](#): > > No different than it is now, and no different than it is in much of the US, including bleeding heart California. Three states legalized gay marriage last week, and the trend in most of the U.S. is moving in the right direction. California’s ban is likely to be thrown out by the courts. Meanwhile the Southeastern U.S. would probably be the last states to legalize those marriages and they’ve already added those bans to their constitutions. > [@](#): > > What about Maine? Or Wisconsin? Or Washington? Or Oregon? Socially, I suspect each of those states (among others) could do a much better job. There is much less whining about secession coming from those states for some reason. > [@](#): > > If power were returned back to the states, what could you do to avoid StateGov? Again: > [@BabaBooey](#): > > The point I’m trying to make is, if all states went solo, who gives a shit if LA made abortion or homosexuality illegal? It’s very easy to move from state to state. > [@BabaBooey](#): > > So you are implying that I can easily move from one nation to another? That’s not even remotely the case. > [@BabaBooey](#): > > Return power to the states, and nothing changes with those making bad decisions Weren’t you saying something about increased liberty? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/162 "2012-11-16T17:49:01Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > No different than it is now, and no different than it is in much of the US, including bleeding heart California. No, these states might actually _outlaw homosexuality_. > [@](#): > > What about Maine? Or Wisconsin? Or Washington? Or Oregon? Socially, I suspect each of those states (among others) could do a much better job. They certainly have a better track record than the Southern states, but I still prefer the Federal Government. > [@](#): > > Do you not see the MASSIVE difference? What can I do to avoid the FedGov? Leave. There’s lots of other places on this planet. Go to Hong Kong or Singapore if you want more “economic freedom”, or the Netherlands or Denmark if you want more social freedom, or sit on an uninhabited portion of the Sahara desert (or go to Somalia) if you want both. Or, because we have a democratic system, advocate for change. You can even advocate secession, as you are now. But don’t be too surprised that most people, even in those states, don’t want to secede with you. And when you accept that, you can try to change this country, or decide to go to another. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/163 "2012-11-16T17:50:06Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > Never. And I never said LA was some bastion of social liberty (although NOLA would be). How does removing the FedGov from the situation change that for the worse or better? It removes the pesky Constitution that the “FedGov”\* is tasked with upholding. You know, the one that guarantees freedom of religion and that other fun stuff. Perhaps more importantly, it also removes the jurisdiction of the federal courts that do uphold that stuff when [ignorant](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore) [shitkickers](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33332436/ns/us_news-life/t/interracial-couple-denied-marriage-license/#.UKZ-JOS-opo) won’t. ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/164 "2012-11-16T17:53:11Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > So some increased economic freedom can be acquired, and all you have to give up is large amounts of personal freedom. Sounds fantastic. In LA, I’d say more than “some” economic freedom, and less than “large amounts of” social freedoms. But that’s just LA. That’s just one of 50 states. Why not let the experiment engulf all states? > [@](#): > > Three states legalized gay marriage last week, and the trend in most of the U.S. is moving in the right direction. California’s ban is likely to be thrown out by the courts. Meanwhile the Southeastern U.S. would probably be the last states to legalize those marriages and they’ve already added those bans to their constitutions. OK? Again how does eliminating the federal government change any of that? > [@](#): > > Weren’t you saying something about increased liberty? The federal government is not forcing any of the anti-gay marriage states to allow gay marriage. The federal government is fighting the states that legalized pot. What is so difficult to understand about that? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/165 "2012-11-16T17:54:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, these states might actually _outlaw homosexuality_.. Which remained illegal in a bunch of states until… uh oh, the FedGov got involved in 2003! Guess what! And surprise, the states that are whining the most about seceding are mostly the same states that banned it. Sodomy was illegal in Alabama, Florida, Idaho, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Utah and Virginia, and same-same intercourse was illegal in Texas, Kansas, Oklahoma and Missouri. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/166 "2012-11-16T17:59:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by BabaBooey View Post > The point I’m trying to make is, if all states went solo, who gives a shit if LA made abortion or homosexuality illegal? It’s very easy to move from state to state. I doubt those states would have open boarders and allow free immigration. ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/167 "2012-11-16T18:00:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It removes the pesky Constitution that the “FedGov”\* is tasked with upholding. You know, the one that guarantees freedom of religion and that other fun stuff. Perhaps more importantly, it also removes the jurisdiction of the federal courts that do uphold that stuff when [ignorant](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore) [shitkickers](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33332436/ns/us_news-life/t/interracial-couple-denied-marriage-license/#.UKZ-JOS-opo) won’t. First of all, I don’t think LA would get too ridiculous on social issues. Second, and most importantly, why not let them? Again, it’s not difficult at all to move from one state to another. Any dumbass religious law would hurt the state. And third, do you believe that every state would enact similar intolerant laws? Absolutely not; however, the FedGov can affect everyone in the nation with one dumbass decision (something they do frequently). ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/168 "2012-11-16T18:01:30Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I doubt those states would have open boarders and allow free immigration. You’re right, I’m sure that they won’t allow the gay people that they hate to leave and become someone else’s problem. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/169 "2012-11-16T18:03:33Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > First of all, I don’t think LA would get too ridiculous on social issues. Second, and most importantly, why not let them? If I live in LA? Of course I don’t want to let them! And in the fictional nation of Texalabamissippiana, they’re ALL likely to outlaw abortion, homosexuality, teaching of evolution, etc. That sounds like a _terrible_ place to live. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/170 "2012-11-16T18:04:29Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > You’re right, I’m sure that they won’t allow the gay people that they hate to leave and become someone else’s problem. But where are they going to go? The USA can’t take refugees from every right wing nation on Earth. ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/171 "2012-11-16T18:06:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If I live in LA? Of course I don’t want to let them! And in the fictional nation of Texalabamissippiana, they’re ALL likely to outlaw abortion, homosexuality, teaching of evolution, etc. That sounds like a _terrible_ place to live. Not for the people that think they should be outlawed (as incredibly stupid as that may be). You know what I think would be a terrible place to live? New York City: insanely high taxes and authoritarian social stances. And yet some people eat that shit up. I say let NYC do what they want. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/172 "2012-11-16T18:06:43Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > First of all, I don’t think LA would get too ridiculous on social issues. The state constitution bars the recognition of same-sex marriage, the sodomy ban is probably still on the books, and I’m pretty sure the governor believes exorcism is a real phenomenon. Please define “ridiculous” (oh wait, I just did). ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/173 "2012-11-16T18:08:57Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > But where are they going to go? The USA can’t take refugees from every right wing nation on Earth. So the same country that is pretty much opening their border to Mexico won’t allow in English speaking homosexuals? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/174 "2012-11-16T18:09:10Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > Not for the people that think they should be outlawed (as incredibly stupid as that may be). So you’re all for allowing the majority to take away the rights of the minority. And here I thought you were “pro-freedom”. > [@](#): > > You know what I think would be a terrible place to live? New York City: insanely high taxes and authoritarian social stances. And yet some people eat that shit up. I say let NYC do what they want. Have you been to NYC? Did you have a bad time there? And you still haven’t answered my most relevant of questions- what experiences have you had of freedoms being taken away or denied? What great suffering have you endured? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/175 "2012-11-16T18:10:14Z")
**BabaBooey** , would you mind explaining your stance on people voting with their feet and leaving states or countries they don’t like? Because in the posts I have been quoting I think you flatly contradicted yourself. ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/176 "2012-11-16T18:11:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The state constitution bars the recognition of same-sex marriage, the sodomy ban is probably still on the books, and I’m pretty sure the governor believes exorcism is a real phenomenon. Please define “ridiculous” (oh wait, I just did). OK? So which of those things change with the elimination of the federal government? ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/177 "2012-11-16T18:14:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **BabaBooey** , would you mind explaining your stance on people voting with their feet and leaving states or countries they don’t like? I fully support each of those things. The best examples I can think of are people leaving California due to excessive taxes, and people leaving France due to… excessive taxes. > [@](#): > > Because in the posts I have been quoting I think you flatly contradicted yourself. How so? If you’re talking about what you just said, it’s much, much, MUCH easier to leave California and head to, say Nevada, than it is to be a citizen of France and leave for the US, Australia, Germany, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/178 "2012-11-16T18:15:44Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > OK? So which of those things change with the elimination of the federal government? The sodomy ban is unenforceable now due to Supreme Court decisions - without the federal government, it becomes enforceable again. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/179 "2012-11-16T18:18:22Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > First of all, I don’t think LA would get too ridiculous on social issues. Second, and most importantly, why not let them? Again, it’s not difficult at all to move from one state to another. Any dumbass religious law would hurt the state. And third, do you believe that every state would enact similar intolerant laws? Absolutely not; however, the FedGov can affect everyone in the nation with one dumbass decision (something they do frequently). You keep saying that, but your beliefs about where an unfettered Louisiana would go on social issues is way out of line with the facts. Louisiana passed (in 2004) a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage even though gay marriage was already illegal. Consensual homosexual _activity_ is legal in Louisiana _only_ because of Lawrence v. Texas, which struck down such laws as unconstitutional. The Louisiana Senate passed [a blanket ban on abortions in 2006](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13154788/ns/politics/t/louisiana-senate-approves-abortion-ban/), and the House nearly passed a similar bill in 2011 (the only reason it didn’t was the loss of Medicaid funding that would result). David Duke received 39% of the gubernatorial vote in _1992_. Let me say that again: your state nearly elected a Klansman governor 20 years ago. He had already served in the state House for two years at that point. Most of your state is \*still \*under federal desegregation orders. Louisiana public schools [are allowed to teach “intelligent design”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Academic_Freedom_Act#Louisiana_act). What on earth can possibly give you the idea that Louisiana is a socially moderate state? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174/180 "2012-11-16T18:21:15Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > OK? So which of those things change with the elimination of the federal government? Without the federal government, the states start imprisoning “sodomites”. One of the most important duties of the Federal Government is to protect the minority from possibly tyranny by the majority. What if the majority in a seceded-Mississippi vote to enslave the minority? The Federal Government doesn’t allow that. Without them, we have to trust the good folks of Mississippi. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-hostility-towards-states-that-want-to-secede/641174.md?page=10)