# Why the idea that fiscal conservatives hate poor people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872 "2010-02-06T01:32:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/21 "2010-02-06T02:39:22Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Again, that is a straw man argument. I’m not sure you know what “straw man” argument actually means. It doesn’t apply to what I wrote. I grew up in low-income housing. I’m well aware of how poor people think. > [@](#): > > There is a finite amount of GDP in the US, Well, I guess that’s your problem right there. GDP isn’t finite. Try and find one cite from an economist, philosopher, or business book that concludes GDP is finite. Btw, when you say: > [@](#): > > ‘a system where all the income growth and tax benefits go to the wealthy, and where real estate, education and housing grow in cost 2-3x faster than wages is not sustainable’. … it’s just a long-winded way of what I already said, “if you have money and don’t share it (via taxes), that means you hate poor people” Now granted, I could’ve softened my words to dull some of the sharp edges but I think that’s basically the essence of it. I speak as a former poor person who lived, ate, and breathed the life in a poor community. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/22 "2010-02-06T02:42:48Z")
GDP is finite. The fact that it grows at 2-4% a year doesn’t mean if you take a snapshot in 2010 it will be at about $14 trillion. It isn’t at 20 trillion. It might be by the 2020s, but not right now. As of right now, we have to find a way to pay for education, health care, real estate, the military, transportation, etc. with that 14 trillion. The problem is that as cost of living goes up, wages do not go up to match it. As a result you have a system full of economic insecurity for most people. That is a huge problem. And it is different than blaming rich people for your problems. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/23 "2010-02-06T02:48:47Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > Btw, when you say: > > [QUOTE=Wesley Clark] > ‘a system where all the income growth and tax benefits go to the wealthy, and where real estate, education and housing grow in cost 2-3x faster than wages is not sustainable’. … it’s just a long-winded way of what I already said, “if you have money and don’t share it (via taxes), that means you hate poor people” [/QUOTE] That’s a ridiculous claim. He’s saying that trying to have the rest of the population support the country while letting the wealthy have a free ride _ **won’t work** _ over the long term. It doesn’t matter if hatred is involved at all. The country can only carry the rich on its back so long. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/24 "2010-02-06T02:50:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > There is (for me, a conservative) a puzzling and frustrating assumption at the foundation of the those on the left. That is: the best way to help the the greatest number of poor is to give them stuff. Tis is what it boils down to. It can very well be the case that less entitlements is a better route. Just look at welfare. I’d disagree. I would tend to say that from what i’ve seen it is the majority of those on the left’s viewpoint that people should, ideally, not be in such a situation in the first place. An ounce of prevention, and all that. That to “give them stuff” is touted a lot I would generally argue is because that’s probably one of the more debated parts of helping poor people, not because it is the best way. I’d guess that the point that the best way to help people is to stop them needing as much help in the first place doesn’t come up much because, broadly, righties and lefties tend to agree on it. I like to go with my general assumption on discovering something puzzling or hard to understand with other people; quite possibly the misunderstanding is not theirs, but mine. > [@](#): > > I’m of the ind that we need a safety net, but we should craft policies that would result with the fewest people winding up in the net. Some on the left think that the way to gauge how well the government is doing is look at the number of people being helped by the net; and the more the better. Surely that is a number that should be looked at? If it is in a total lack of context, sure, that’s not necessarily a worthwhile number, but in general i’d say looking at how many use the net is a good idea, and that in combination with other factors it’s a reasonable gauge. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/25 "2010-02-06T02:54:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, that’s not what it means. Fiscal conservatives, as such, are hostile only to **deficit spending,** not necessarily to high taxes or a big government budget or an expansive role for government. I think you are taking the “fiscal resonsibility” response to fiscal conservativism to heart too much and thinking that that’s what fiscal conservatism is all about. That is, I don’t give two shits about whether the budget is balanced every year or not–I care about what government spends the money on. Please substitute any other term you want for “fiscal conservative” as you wish, but I think that what I am describing more represents what other people mean when they say “fiscal conservative.” ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/26 "2010-02-06T02:56:49Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > Well I’m a moderate and I think both conservatives and liberals are fairly idiotic. I have to agree. On the one hand, you have these Liberals who think all social ills can be solved by the same government that produced the Department of Motor Vehicles, No Child Left Behind, and FEMA printing money out of thin air. On the other hand, you have these redneck conservatives afraid of anything or anyone that isn’t white, stupid or making $45k a year. Then you have the other conservatives who think that it is a character flaw not to have attended Exetor, Harvard and Wharton Business School so you can work at Goldman Sachs. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/27 "2010-02-06T02:57:11Z")
\*\*[Why the idea that fiscal conservatives hate poor people?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12083551#post12083551) Who is [Dancing on the grave of health care “reform”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=550553) ?\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/28 "2010-02-06T02:59:01Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > There is a finite amount of GDP in the US, and if we are giving 70% of GDP to the wealthiest 1/10 of the country, then you can’t expect the other 90% of the public to pay for health care, education and housing on such a small % of income. What do you mean by “we are giving”? “We” don’t create the GDP and then divide it up. The GDP is just a number that measures the sum total of economic activity. Different wealth percentiles will have incomes that are a higher or lower percentage of GDP in different years based on lots of different factors. You are making the fallacy of treating the economy as a fixed pie that is divided up among the participants. That is not correct. The pie can be increased in size. Those that you believe “we are giving” more to are actually creating more. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/29 "2010-02-06T03:05:07Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I have to agree. On the one hand, you have these Liberals who think all social ills can be solved by the same government that produced the Department of Motor Vehicles, No Child Left Behind, and FEMA printing money out of thin air. On the other hand, you have these redneck conservatives afraid of anything or anyone that isn’t white, stupid or making $45k a year. Then you have the other conservatives who think that it is a character flaw not to have attended Exetor, Harvard and Wharton Business School so you can work at Goldman Sachs. Wow, very surprising for me to read this from you. This is really what you think of fiscal conservatives (i.e., either rednecks or silver-spooners)? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/30 "2010-02-06T03:07:42Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > \*\*[Why the idea that fiscal conservatives hate poor people?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12083551#post12083551) > > Who is [Dancing on the grave of health care “reform”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=550553) ?\*\* That would be This Guy. Not sure if you’ve been to The BBQ Pit before, but that place is for snark and ad hominem attacks and bile and vitriol in all its motherfucking glory. I’m pretty excited that a huge government program is on its last legs, so I whooped it up. Doesn’t mean I hate poor people. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/31 "2010-02-06T03:10:02Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > GDP is finite. You are mixing up a static measurement (a GDP for a particular past year) with the potential the GDP represents. It’s like looking at a ruler and concluding that our mathematical numbering system is finite because there are only 12 markers for each inch on it. If I go outside and start telling jokes and people pay me to listen to it, I’ve just added to the GDP _without_ taking any GDP output from anybody else – rich or poor. Again, please cite a credible source that teaches “GDP is finite.” ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/32 "2010-02-06T03:10:45Z")
There’s been a lot of discussion of the Just World Phenomenon around here lately (when conservatives do that they get dismissed as “talking points,” but it’s OK for liberals to all talk about the same thing for some reason). Here’s my take: Do you think it’s better to believe that your actions have an affect on your outcomes or to just believe that it’s all a matter of chance? I think it’s better to believe the former. I don’t think that that belief means I’ve somehow bought into this big Just World Theory that everything bad that happens to someone is because they were bad. I think it’s just a way for fiscal liberals to again argue that fiscal conservatives hate poor people (and we’re back on topic). ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/33 "2010-02-06T03:11:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > That would be This Guy. Not sure if you’ve been to The BBQ Pit before, but that place is for snark and ad hominem attacks and bile and vitriol in all its motherfucking glory. I’m pretty excited that a huge government program is on its last legs, so I whooped it up. Doesn’t mean I hate poor people. I’d argue that this kind of thing is probably what makes some people think the other hates a certain section of the public - it’s very easy to see someone reject a particular method of getting something, and then assume that they must reject the underlying motivation for it too. Someone thinks this health care reform will help the poor; other guy does not want the reform to pass; ergo, they must not want to help the poor. When really it’s not fair to assume that disagreeing with the method means disagreeing with the motivation. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/34 "2010-02-06T03:12:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Fiscal conservatives, as such, are hostile only to **deficit spending,** not necessarily to high taxes or a big government budget or an expansive role for government. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/35 "2010-02-06T03:21:56Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > On the one hand, you have these Liberals who think all social ills can be solved by the same government that produced the Department of Motor Vehicles, _ **No Child Left Behind** _, and FEMA printing money out of thin air. So Bush is a liberal now? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/36 "2010-02-06T03:23:17Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Doesn’t mean I hate poor people. Of course not. It’s just business, nothing personal, right? No one could ever fail to see the difference between a business decision and an act of malice, could they? Of course they could! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/37 "2010-02-06T03:25:38Z")
Its a misnomer to suggest that conservatives oppose progress, they simply oppose change. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/38 "2010-02-06T03:28:43Z")
It’s more complex than a lot of voters realize. Here’s one piece: For someone like me (a former fiscal conservative) there is a concern about the kind of opportunity society offers its citizens. Trying to provide a reasonable chance for everyone can require public investment. Those who suffer most without that investment, or gain the most from it, are the otherwise poor. Does that mean we’re robbing the rich to subsidize the poor, or that we’re spending that which is necessary to cultivate everyone’s potential? Another piece: The Judeo-Christian idea of [_tzedakah_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzedakah) or philanthropy (a.k.a. “charity” or even–& I know this is a triggering phrase for conservatives–“social justice”) involves the fortunate giving funds to the unfortunate to help them become better off. If one sees the government as that which tries to reward good & punish evil, & the government is trying to encourage justice in the world, it makes sense to write tax laws such that those with great wealth are rewarded for good behavior & penalized for bad behavior. In Judeo-Xtian terms, that means that the quite wealthy owe higher taxes–which are then used for charitable purposes–but citizens can lower their tax bills by funding other charitable enterprises. OTOH, if one objects to the government following Judeo-Xtian morality, & intends the government to be neutral on theories of morality, well…you figure that one out. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/39 "2010-02-06T03:31:49Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m of the ind that we need a safety net, but we should craft policies that would result with the fewest people winding up in the net. Some on the left think that the way to gauge how well the government is doing is look at the number of people being helped by the net; and the more the better. :Sigh: No, the question is, “How many is our safety net failing to help effectively?” (Total population) - (those helped sufficiently) - (those who don’t need help) = (those who slip through cracks). We want the “slipped through cracks” proportion to be low. That’s the point. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872/40 "2010-02-06T03:35:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, it’s because that they know quite well that if the government doesn’t solve those problems, do those tasks, most of the problems government solves won’t get solved. Period. History demonstrates this; non-government people and organizations had thousands of years to solve the problems that govenment had to finally be called in to try to fix. Those private organizations either didn’t seriously try, or had nowhere near the resources. If something isn’t profitable, then the government is the nearly always the best organization for the job. This is really important. In a modern nation-state with freedom of religion, the state or “government” is THE MOST POWERFUL INSTITUTION. It’s often the vital ingredient of a wide-ranging social project. One of the little social clubs that modern Yankees call churches doesn’t have near the resources or the power of the US government. Even the US gov’t pre-1900 (which is romanticized by “small government” types) still had the power of the nation behind it & authority over the nation. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Libertarians have no problems with oppression and exploitation, as long as the government isn’t the one doing it. This should be a T-shirt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-idea-that-fiscal-conservatives-hate-poor-people/527872.md?page=3)