# Why The Incessant harping On the Crusades? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 8, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823 "2015-12-08T15:46:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/81 "2015-12-08T21:38:38Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > . . . So what cite do I need? . . . Take a look at the fact-based posts by **Mr. Kobayashi** and **Malthus**. Good, solid, yeoman efforts at honest research, with data and some interpretation. Learn, and endeavor to follow. Just saying “Because I said so” doesn’t cut it on a fact-based discussion forum. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/82 "2015-12-08T22:11:38Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > I think it’s just an easy and unimaginative metaphor, something that everyone can understand, the West = Crusaders = bad. > > Personally I always wondered why they don’t spit the same vitriol against the Mongols, … In a GQ thread about it was posited that the likely explanation is that some Mongols eventually at least converted to Islam, whereas ‘the west’ is still Christian. That was an absurd speculation based on an ignorance of history. The reason is simply there are not any modern Mongol connected interventions which can make allegories to. It has not any modern productivity as propaganda. It has no point to be raised. Maybe if the PRC became an interventionist power in the region it would then have a productivity as discourse, but otherwise… However, the takfiri salafistes draw on the certain anti-mongol medieval writers in their justifications to attack ‘false muslim’ mongols created an initial opening for their modern takfiri ideology. the facile speculation that is promoted as ‘fighting ignorance’ observations about the region has not ceased to surprise me again and again. > [@Iggy](#): > > Simple enough. ISIS and al Qaeda have taken the view that continued involvement of the West in the Middle East, whether colonialism of the past centuries or modern political and cultural ties, is an ongoing continuation of the Crusades from long ago. Yes, it was their demarche to put a religious emphasis on the much more common discourse that is about the wrongs - the real ones and the attributed ones - of the colonizers, which is 19th century and 20th century. But that discourse did not have the same differentiating propoganda value for the takfiri movements as the crusader discourse. So yes, it is not “muslims” in general nor arabs nor scholars, but the salafistes mostly and the takfiri even more so among them that have driven the reference. It is thus modern and recent. The American scholar of the ancient islamic periods, Lewis even has noted in his book on The Muslim Discovery of Europe (1982) the Islamic world did not pay historically great attention to the Crusades, it is more a European discourse and obsession imported oddly by the Salafistes. > [@](#): > > Obama’s remarks were [criticized](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/historians-weigh-obamas-comparison-isis-militants-medieval-christian/story?id=28787194)by historians > > > [@](#): > > > > “I don’t think the president knows very much about the crusades,” Thomas Madden, a historian at the University of St. Louis, told ABC News. > > > > “He seems to be casting them as an example of a distortion of Christianity and trying to compare that to what he sees as a distortion of Islam in the actions of ISIS,” Madden said. “The initial goal of the Crusades was to give back lands to Christians that had been conquered, due to Muslim conquests.” What a strange criticism about the use of the word when the person hugely distorts the reality of the Crusades hitting as much the Orthodox Christians as the Muslims while the Crusaders practiced Roman/Latin supremacy and attacked and suppressed the non-Latin christians… It was oppressed Christians who opened the doors in the first place… Weirdly distorting this criticism itself, ironic. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/83 "2015-12-08T22:24:03Z")
That’s true. But they didn’t go there _to_ sack Constantinople. It just sort of happened on the way. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/84 "2015-12-08T22:40:42Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > That was an absurd speculation based on an ignorance of history. The reason is simply there are not any modern Mongol connected interventions which can make allegories to. It has not any modern productivity as propaganda. It has no point to be raised. Maybe if the PRC became an interventionist power in the region it would then have a productivity as discourse, but otherwise… > > However, the takfiri salafistes draw on the certain anti-mongol medieval writers in their justifications to attack ‘false muslim’ mongols created an initial opening for their modern takfiri ideology. > > the facile speculation that is promoted as ‘fighting ignorance’ observations about the region has not ceased to surprise me again and again. All right, calm yourself down, I was just asking. Not saying they should’ve but why don’t they, if we’re talking historical grievances. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/85 "2015-12-09T00:36:55Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Take a look at the fact-based posts by **Mr. Kobayashi** and **Malthus**. Good, solid, yeoman efforts at honest research, with data and some interpretation. > > Learn, and endeavor to follow. Just saying “Because I said so” doesn’t cut it on a fact-based discussion forum. What fact? The fact I said I “heard” “it”? And the claim ain’t some outrageous thing nobody has ever heard before? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/86 "2015-12-09T01:28:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s true. But they didn’t go there _to_ sack Constantinople. It just sort of happened on the way. Where did I indicate I spoke of Constantinople? I was speaking of the regions of the Islamic control, not the added side hypocrisies. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/87 "2015-12-09T02:58:40Z")
If this is a thing, I don’t think it’s a “Muslim” thing. It’s a Middle Eastern thing. I spent years living in a Muslim part of Africa, and I only heard the Crusades mentioned once, when visiting a library in Timbuktu stocked with medieval manuscripts I was told were brought over for safe keeping during the Crusades. I’m guessing that the Crusades don’t really resonate as much with Muslims in, say, Indonesia or Kazakhstan either. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/88 "2015-12-09T03:38:59Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > It’s a Middle Eastern thing. not even that, it is a takfiri thing. > [@](#): > > when visiting a library in Timbuktu stocked with medieval manuscripts I was told were brought over for safe keeping during the Crusades. it s by the way nonsense told to the toubabs tourists because they think the white people are flattered by this idea and maybe self flattery to inflate the importance of Timbouctou. the manuscripts of the libraries of Timbouctou are essentially Maghrebi in the textual origin, nothing to do with the crusades. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/89 "2015-12-09T04:54:50Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > It is thus modern and recent. The American scholar of the ancient islamic periods, Lewis even has noted in his book on The Muslim Discovery of Europe (1982) the Islamic world did not pay historically great attention to the Crusades, it is more a European discourse and obsession imported oddly by the Salafistes. I’ve heard that as well, that the Crusades have generally been viewed as just another series of wars. I’ve also read some speculation that the Crusades have not been a major focus of Arabic scholarship because the counter-effort to expel the Christian rulers has been viewed as primarily Turkish-led. I don’t know how much it’s been written about among Turkish scholars. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/90 "2015-12-09T06:06:57Z")
Its not just the Muslims. In college the atheist bozos were always harping the line of “religion has caused more wars than anything else” (which is a LIE). They point to the crusades as proof. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/91 "2015-12-09T11:25:35Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > it s by the way nonsense told to the toubabs tourists because they think the white people are flattered by this idea and maybe self flattery to inflate the importance of Timbouctou. > > the manuscripts of the libraries of Timbouctou are essentially Maghrebi in the textual origin, nothing to do with the crusades. Thanks. I suspected the story didn’t make a lot of sense, but didn’t have any way to research it further at the time. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/92 "2015-12-09T11:54:20Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Its not just the Muslims. In college the atheist bozos were always harping the line of “religion has caused more wars than anything else” (which is a LIE). They point to the crusades as proof. You’re conflating two points which educated atheists are known to make: 1. That “religion has caused more wars…” (may or may not be true, depending on how you define “religion,” “war,” and “cause”); 2. That, viewed over the _longue durée_, there’s nothing particularly “peaceful” about Christianity as compared to Islam (this is obviously true, and it’s when your educated acquaintances would mention the Crusades). ---
**Author:** ![race\_to\_the\_bottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c4cdca/32.png) [@race\_to\_the\_bottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/race_to_the_bottom)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/93 "2015-12-09T14:02:17Z")
It is unlikely that the STMB is home to many Muslim scholars. If you are seriously interested in pursuing this question, you should have no problem finding answers elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/94 "2015-12-09T15:28:25Z")
> [@race\_to\_the\_bottom](#): > > It is unlikely that the STMB is home to many Muslim scholars. If you are seriously interested in pursuing this question, you should have no problem finding answers elsewhere. What specific question are you referring to? The OP made the claim that there was “incessant harping on the Crusades” by Muslim scholars, and _this_ particular claim has yet to be backed up. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/95 "2015-12-09T15:34:23Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I’ve also read some speculation that the Crusades have not been a major focus of Arabic scholarship because the counter-effort to expel the Christian rulers has been viewed as primarily Turkish-led. I don’t know how much it’s been written about among Turkish scholars. What? That is also nonsense. In the era of the crusades this is ahistorical and has not any sense, the Ayyubids of SalahEddine - which the Islamic scholarship has not been shy of at all - were of the Kurdish origin. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/96 "2015-12-09T15:44:16Z")
Same reason that Bubba-Ray Skeeter would go on about Lee’s invasion of Gettysburg, because it was the high water mark of the Confederacy. Islam is still supposed to eventually conquer the entire world and the Crusades were the closest it came to, if it weren’t for those meddling infidels… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/97 "2015-12-09T15:46:45Z")
Now I am picturing some some muslim/islamic version of the General Lee with something like the Turkish Flag painted on top. Just some good ole Muslims Never meaning no harm Beats all you ever saw Just imposing Sharia law Since the day they were born ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/98 "2015-12-09T16:20:22Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Where did I indicate I spoke of Constantinople? I was speaking of the regions of the Islamic control, not the added side hypocrisies. I assumed that’s what you were referring to when you mentioned non-Latin Christians. ---
**Author:** ![thoughtCrimes70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9a140/32.png) [@thoughtCrimes70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thoughtCrimes70)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/99 "2015-12-09T17:23:57Z")
Whites have an odd fascination with redeeming themselves for existing. Its called the “Western Christian ethic” and I don’t care if you’re a dyed in the wool atheist or bible thumper, whites are guided by those basic principles. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823/100 "2015-12-09T18:08:28Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Same reason that Bubba-Ray Skeeter would go on about Lee’s invasion of Gettysburg, because it was the high water mark of the Confederacy. Islam is still supposed to eventually conquer the entire world and the Crusades were the closest it came to, if it weren’t for those meddling infidels… 😃 This is completely ignorant nonsense. It was the Western europeans attacking, not the muslims and the greatest extent of the central islamic empire is not in any way effected by the crusades. the gross ignorance of the americans about any history outside of a handful of wars they like to make movies about is truly impressive, as is the extremely badly informed analogies they draw off of their action movie history knowledge. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I assumed that’s what you were referring to when you mentioned non-Latin Christians. Why? The historian spoke of the crusades and the holy lands. the orthodox christians were the majority of the population and the Latins were very happy to oppress and deny them their access for being the wrong kind of christians. The idea that the Latin Roman Crusades were really for all christians is a laughable piece of hypocrisy to the arabic or the aramaic speaking orthodox. We do not even need to look to the greek speakers on the island of Cyprus or elsewhere. The statements of the president Obama are not less accurate than the supposed critic who glosses over these things for a unifying narrative. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-incessant-harping-on-the-crusades/739823.md?page=6)