# Why the lack of widespread civil disorder in Southern Europe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2013, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027 "2013-08-12T09:24:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/22 "2013-08-14T06:21:29Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I don’t think it’s always dumb to riot. Scaring the shit out of the Powers That Be is sometimes the only thing that works. OWS might have been more successful if it had functioned more like a lynch mob on Wall Street. Scaring the shit out of people _is_ dumb if you want them to trust you and not run away, both of which are prerequisites to them giving you a job. Even where violence _is_ the best answer, a riot is too unfocused to be morally acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/23 "2013-08-14T06:31:03Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > OWS might have been more successful if it had functioned more like a lynch mob on Wall Street. Noted for next time. And there **will** be a next time. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/24 "2013-08-14T06:36:18Z")
If there isn’t any money, there isn’t any money. Rioting won’t make money spontaneously appear. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/25 "2013-08-14T07:28:05Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I don’t think it’s always dumb to riot. Scaring the shit out of the Powers That Be is sometimes the only thing that works. OWS might have been more successful if it had functioned more like a lynch mob on Wall Street. Which makes me remember that the Occupy movement, before spreading to other countries, including the USA, started in Spain. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/26 "2013-08-14T10:11:25Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Ridley, > Are you, in particular, drawing an analogy with race riots in the US in the 60s and early 90s? If so, it seems that the situations have significant differences. Southern European youths have had a bad time over the last few years. US blacks had been treated badly for rather longer and more pervasively than that. > > I’m guessing that a lot of southern European youths have family to fall back on to support them. For US blacks, relying on their family who were also black and afflicted by the same circumstances offered less support. > > Even though it may seem that there is no hope of the situation improving, that is more hyperbole than analysis. It’s a bad recession, not a situation that’s been going on for decades/generations and looks set to continue for decades/generations. Not really. In fact I didn’t really know that there were race riots in the US in the 1960s (I’m not American). I was aware of the riots in Los Angeles in the 90s. As I said, from what little I do know of riots and their causes mass youth unemployment, warm weather and no prospect of the situation improving is a recipe for disaster. Given the fact that London exploded in riots over a lot less than what the Greeks and Spaniards are going through, it made me wonder why we aren’t seeing the same thing. > [@Grumman](#): > > Maybe they’re smart enough to realise riots aren’t the answer? If you’re unhappy that 60% of young people are unemployed, acting like a complete tool and burning down shops just means you’ll have an 80% unemployment rate at the end of it, putting you one step further away from achieving your goals. When has logic or reason ever mattered when it comes to riots? England has mass riots that seemed to have been set off by the police shooting a piece of shit in London. How many people in Manchester, hundreds of miles away, actually understood why they were rioting, other than other people were doing it? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/27 "2013-08-14T14:43:32Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If there isn’t any money, there isn’t any money. Rioting won’t make money spontaneously appear. Well, presumably the thinking would be that enough rioting and civil disorder would scare the Germans enough to put up new money. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/28 "2013-08-14T15:31:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If there isn’t any money, there isn’t any money. Rioting won’t make money spontaneously appear. Rioting is economically useless in any immediate sense, but it remains politically useful in squeaky-wheel terms. That matters. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/29 "2013-08-14T15:35:28Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I don’t think it’s always dumb to riot. Scaring the shit out of the Powers That Be is sometimes the only thing that works. OWS might have been more successful if it had functioned more like a lynch mob on Wall Street. Successful in what way? You think a couple bankers strung up from lampposts are going to make the average joe think we need universal health care and more jobs? Or would it make them think the cops should start shooting the goddam dirty hippies in the face? The reason the Civil Rights movement didn’t include assassinations of notorious segregationists is because it wouldn’t work. Shooting civil rights activists didn’t shut down the civil rights movement did it? I guess righteous people just get braver when faced with intimidation, while evil people are cowards and will run away and cry when faced with physical violence. Is that it? Intimidation will work against THEM, but it only makes US stronger? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/30 "2013-08-14T15:55:38Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Successful in what way? > > You think a couple bankers strung up from lampposts are going to make the average joe think we need universal health care and more jobs? Or would it make them think the cops should start shooting the goddam dirty hippies in the face? > > The reason the Civil Rights movement didn’t include assassinations of notorious segregationists is because it wouldn’t work. Shooting civil rights activists didn’t shut down the civil rights movement did it? > > I guess righteous people just get braver when faced with intimidation, while evil people are cowards and will run away and cry when faced with physical violence. Is that it? Intimidation will work against THEM, but it only makes US stronger? My feeling is that a large number of people who are responsible for the 2007 crash and the general transfer of wealth from the 99 percent to the one percent are sociopaths. Typically, they are not a fearful bunch, they often indulge in risky behavior because they don’t feel fear. Such people are hard to reach with mre logic and persuasion. Stringing a few of them from lampposts MIGHT make some of them realize it’s time to back off. More to the point, it would probably make the non-sociopaths among the one percent realize that they had crossed a line and backing off would be a good idea. I see no sign at present that there is any such sentiment among the one percent. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/31 "2013-08-14T16:00:20Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > You think a couple bankers strung up from lampposts are going to make the average joe think we need universal health care and more jobs? No. That does not mean it is not worth doing. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/32 "2013-08-14T17:01:07Z")
So these people are sociopaths who don’t feel fear or normal human emotions. Why should they care if one or two of their asshole buddies gets strung up? They aren’t going to believe it could happen to them, and they hate their buddies anyway because they hate everyone. If a bunch of goddam dirty hippies lynch a respectable businessman, do the other respectable businessmen turn to each other and wonder if maybe the hippies have a point? Or do they decide that the hippies are murderous animals who deserve whatever the cops give them? And how does the average working class guy view the victim and the killers? Does he think the victim had it coming and think of the killers as heroes? Or to put it in clearer terms, when segregationists were out lynching civil rights workers, did that teach the civil rights activists that they had crossed a line and maybe they needed to back off? Or did it teach them the opposite? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/33 "2013-08-14T18:49:22Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Not really. In fact I didn’t really know that there were race riots in the US in the 1960s (I’m not American). I was aware of the riots in Los Angeles in the 90s. As I said, from what little I do know of riots and their causes mass youth unemployment, warm weather and no prospect of the situation improving is a recipe for disaster. Given the fact that London exploded in riots over a lot less than what the Greeks and Spaniards are going through, it made me wonder why we aren’t seeing the same thing… Not sure why you’ve now mentioned the “warm weather” twice. Gets plenty cold in most parts of Spain in winter – cold enough that sleeping in tents outdoors is not a good idea. Other than that it also appears you are not aware of the 15-M movement and the “Indignados” which was the inspiration for OWS. In fact, there were many Spanish collaborators working with their American counterparts at the height of the portest. As of now, you still have a huge amount of PO’d people in Spain – and the movement still lives. That you don’t see them on the streets on a daily basis doesn’t mean they gave-up. As a whole, they are waiting for the right time to strike again…which may come sooner rather than later as calls for Rajoy to resign are growing larger. In sum: stay tuned. Los Indignados are alive and bucking – but to get clubbed over the head or take a rubber bullet or two to the body takes a bit more than front page news. Again, it’s tactical…they want results and are playing a waiting game. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/34 "2013-08-14T18:52:48Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > The Spanish grey economy is about 20% of GDP, in Italy it’s over 25% (this compares to approx 11% in the UK). > > That has huge implications for tax revenues. And several of the measures which have been put in place “to fix things” are actually lowering tax revenue, in two ways: 1. VAT is above the psychological 20% barrier. This means that many people (such as yours truly) who only bothered report deductible VAT on high-ticket items are now chasing every deductible bit. It also means people with double accounting will put more stuff on the unreported side. 2. Some of the measures appear to have been specifically designed to boost the grey economy. For example, the last modification to the situation of cleaning ladies (who get a special tax regime) has made it unacceptable for one to handle her own SS and income tax: instead, she has to be set up as a part-time employee by every single one of her clients. This in turn means that every single client has to set up as a company (!), which by the way would also make a client who is an individual or family count as self-employed (!!), and require them to have a much more complicated tax structure than they do now. One example: my 71yo’s mother’s only source of income is her pension and her income tax filing consists of going to the Treasury with the “autofilled” form Treasury has sent her and the receipts for the couple of items they always fail to take into account. According to current law, she’d have to set up as self-employed with employees, hire an accountant, file VAT quarterly, file her own income tax withdrawals as well as her employee’s withdrawals quarterly. Like fucking hell, if you know what I mean. My guess is whomever came up with the bright idea figured it would be a way to boost employment numbers. Doesn’t work at all, though; in the case of someone who’s already employed (such as my siblings) because hello they already are, and in the case of people who don’t have jobs because people aren’t going to do something that complicated from which they derive no benefit. Instead, a lot of cleaning ladies who were previously self-employed have now joined the ranks of the officially unemployed. Thing is, who gets blamed for this steaming pile of manure? Brussels or Merkel. And man, both of them are very, very far… ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/35 "2013-08-14T19:34:56Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I don’t think it’s always dumb to riot. Scaring the shit out of the Powers That Be is sometimes the only thing that works. OWS might have been more successful if it had functioned more like a lynch mob on Wall Street. Vigilante justice! What could go wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/36 "2013-08-14T20:50:44Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > 1. Some of the measures appear to have been specifically designed to boost the grey economy. For example, the last modification to the situation of cleaning ladies (who get a special tax regime) has made it unacceptable for one to handle her own SS and income tax: instead, she has to be set up as a part-time employee by every single one of her clients. This in turn means that every single client has to set up as a company (!), which by the way would also make a client who is an individual or family count as self-employed (!!), and require them to have a much more complicated tax structure than they do now. > > One example: my 71yo’s mother’s only source of income is her pension and her income tax filing consists of going to the Treasury with the “autofilled” form Treasury has sent her and the receipts for the couple of items they always fail to take into account. According to current law, she’d have to set up as self-employed with employees, hire an accountant, file VAT quarterly, file her own income tax withdrawals as well as her employee’s withdrawals quarterly. Like fucking hell, if you know what I mean. Heh. Interesting. This is exactly what Americans have to do to (legally) hire a nanny. To hire an individual nanny, I should say. Alternatively, one can contract with a company that employs nannies and handles all of the employment tax aspects itself. (Sorry for the hijack). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/37 "2013-08-15T03:46:08Z")
Yeah well, the previous setup was that the nanny (or cleaning lady, or gramp’s helper) could set herself up as a company: now if it’s a single person, they’re not allowed to (why? every other profession can do that!). It’s just fucking stupid! It’s as if the people making these regulations have no idea how people’s minds work, while on other aspects they evidently do. I said that it’s Brussels and Merkel who get blamed for those two specific shitfests, but that’s the “national press”; regionally and locally, it may be other people, but it’s always someone who is Not Here. There was a 1st of May poster on a closed bank office in Barcelona which was still there last time I went by: if it’s still there next time, I’ll take pics and post the translation. I didn’t know whether to howl or yowl when I first encountered it: Catalonia is THE bourgoise region - the region which has long been proud of its merchants, tradesmen and industry. Barcelona’s medieval parliament is a perfect example of “how they lie to you by ommision in History class”: the first time we were told about Medieval Parliaments was in reference to the Ancien Regime, and the French Parliament of the Ancien Regime was described as if every single Parliament up to that point had followed that exact model. Well, Barcelona’s Consell de Cent was formed mostly by merchants and tradesmen; the only person who had the right to be there on account of being a noble was the Count - I don’t think 1 out of 100 counts as “one third”, but maybe I cannot count (was that a repetitive sentence or what?). Several prominent Catalan politicians and their families are in the middle of audits for things such as “having 20M under-the-table money in Jersey and another 30 in Guernesey, plus the accounts in Luxembourg and the Cayman Islands whose amounts aren’t known yet”. Who did that poster blame for “the plight of Catalan workers”? (sic) The Spanish bourgueoisie, where “Spanish” is defined as “the other 16 regions and two cities”. How come these people who are so good at manipulating “the unwashed masses” are so bad at figuring out how to make laws that we will actually comply with? Or at figuring out that sometimes it’s better to sell more units at a lower price / not push taxes too far up? Me haf no idea, I’m Sciences Track and politicians are all from the Humanities… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/38 "2013-08-15T05:26:00Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Vigilante justice! What could go wrong? Practically everything. That’s why it’s a last resort. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/39 "2013-08-15T09:26:46Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Not sure why you’ve now mentioned the “warm weather” twice. Gets plenty cold in most parts of Spain in winter – cold enough that sleeping in tents outdoors is not a good idea. Yes, I’m aware that it gets cold in Spain in Winter. Given it’s Summer, I’m not sure what relevance this observation has. I’ve mentioned warm weather multiple times because … there’s [a pretty clear link](http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/link-between-summer-heat-riots-1816054) between warm weather (like you get in Spain in Summer, as in … right now) and rioting. > [@](#): > > Other than that it also appears you are not aware of the 15-M movement and the “Indignados” which was the inspiration for OWS. In fact, there were many Spanish collaborators working with their American counterparts at the height of the portest. I’m aware of the Indignados. I’m also aware that their protests have been mostly peaceful, or whatever rioting there has been has been rather subdued, which is the entire point of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/40 "2013-08-15T13:57:01Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Heh. Interesting. This is exactly what Americans have to do to (legally) hire a nanny. > > To hire an individual nanny, I should say. Alternatively, one can contract with a company that employs nannies and handles all of the employment tax aspects itself. > > (Sorry for the hijack). The system they implemented over here is quite good, I believe. You pay these people with “service checks” (worth, say, € 100) that you buy from a public organization at the price it would cost to hire the person part-time including all payments you’d have to do as an employer (retirement, unemployment,health care, etc…), say € 150. Payments, tax reports, etc… are handled by this organization, making the process essentially paperwork-free for the employer. This is mightily convenient, in particular for elderly people. My 87 yo mother, for instance, use them to pay a gardener who works on demand (rather than working for a given number of hours) and two cleaning ladies, each working X hours/week for about 6 months/year (she lives in different places during summer and during winter). The paperwork to directly hire the cleaning ladies every six months and the gardener on an irregular basis would probably be daunting for a person her age. I guess otherwise she would use contractors, but plenty of people would rather be employed than have to become contractors. Or she would try to go without help at least for the house cleaning. The convenience also helps, I think, in reducing the “grey economy” we were talking about. I guess it has a cost (no clue how much, and I don’t know if it’s paid for by the taxpayer or included in the price of the “service checks”) but I think it’s an excellent system. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027/41 "2013-08-15T14:04:04Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > I’ve mentioned warm weather multiple times because … there’s [a pretty clear link](http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/link-between-summer-heat-riots-1816054) between warm weather (like you get in Spain in Summer, as in … right now) and rioting. > . There was a 19th century quote I can’t remember exactly (nor can I remember to whom it is ascribed) that went like “Don’t worry, Sir, French people don’t revolt when it rains”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-lack-of-widespread-civil-disorder-in-southern-europe/666027.md?page=3)