# Why the level of hatred toward Pete Rose? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 24, 2005, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574 "2005-11-24T12:24:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Glassy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@Glassy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glassy)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/21 "2005-11-25T02:05:52Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > When asked about it, Rose said, “I didn’t realize that we were playing women’s softball.” Ooh! So to sum up: sportsmanlike behavior = girl stuff = contemptible and beneath him. I hate him even more now. Thanks, **hajario**! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/22 "2005-11-25T02:10:25Z")
I’m not a big baseball fan, and maybe that’s why I can’t take the outrage seriously. He bet on baseball games – thousands, perhaps millions, of people do. He says he never bet against his own team; if true, that rather nullifies most of the arguments against it. I don’t give a good goddamn that gambling is the “ultimate sin” in baseball – the question is whether it should be. It reminds me of people who argue that drug laws are a good idea because drugs are illegal. Eh? ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/23 "2005-11-25T02:15:26Z")
Most edifying, particularly **WordMan** ’s post, **astorian** ’s maintain the rage stance and **Glassy** ’s suspicions. Are records of Rose’s bets available? Has anyone ever tried to analyse his management decisions on the occassions he bet against his team? Oh, and thanks. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/24 "2005-11-25T02:16:30Z")
> [@don't ask](#): > > Most edifying, particularly **WordMan** ’s post, **astorian** ’s maintain the rage stance and **Glassy** ’s suspicions. > > Are records of Rose’s bets available? Has anyone ever tried to analyse his management decisions on the occassions he bet against his team? > > Oh, and thanks. Some of his betting is available. The analysis done supports he did not bet against his teams. However there is a line of reasoning that says he made some managerial moves to support his bets. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/25 "2005-11-25T02:41:48Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > I’m not a big baseball fan, and maybe that’s why I can’t take the outrage seriously. He bet on baseball games – thousands, perhaps millions, of people do. He says he never bet against his own team; if true, that rather nullifies most of the arguments against it. I don’t give a good goddamn that gambling is the “ultimate sin” in baseball – the question is whether it should be. It reminds me of people who argue that drug laws are a good idea because drugs are illegal. Eh? Well, the reason it is is because it can destroy the game itself. It became the cardinal rule after it was found that the White Sox threw the 1919 World Series for betting purposes. Besides, I thought it was just that he wasn’t listed as a HOF-er, but he’s still featured in the museum parts, right? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/26 "2005-11-25T03:02:49Z")
Guin pretty much nailed how I feel about the guy. He gets caught and agrees to a punishment. Then he starts whining about how unfair the punishment is. He plays on his fans sympathies simply to get more recognition for himself. He still doesn’t think that he did anything wrong. I’d have a lot more respect for the guy if he could keep his mouth shut and take his punishment. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/27 "2005-11-25T03:11:10Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > I’m not a big baseball fan, and maybe that’s why I can’t take the outrage seriously. He bet on baseball games – thousands, perhaps millions, of people do. He says he never bet against his own team; if true, that rather nullifies most of the arguments against it. I don’t give a good goddamn that gambling is the “ultimate sin” in baseball – the question is whether it should be. It reminds me of people who argue that drug laws are a good idea because drugs are illegal. Eh? You’re being obtuse here. The problem isn’t that gambling is a “sin.” It isn’t that gambling is immoral. It’s that gambling and/or associating with underworld figures in the gambling business puts the credibility and integrity of the gamer of baseball at risk. If Pete Rose were charged with going to prostiitutes, with smoking pot, with being a secret member of the Ku Klux Klan… if he were charged with any number of things that some people consider highly immoral, he would STILL belong in the Baseball Hall of Fame, and he would STILL be eligible to be a coach or manager. The issue is not whether Pete is a nice guy. The issue is whether he would compromise the integrity of the game. To use an analogy, my boss would NOT fire me if she found out I was committing adultery. She would NOT fire me if she found out I cheated on my income tax return. She would not fire me for beating my wife. But she WOULD fire me if I stole $20.00 worth of office supplies. Does that mean petty theft is worse than beating my wife? NO! But it DOES mean that a minor job-related crime IS a valid reason to fire me and blackball me, while a serious crime that’s NOT related to my job isn’t. I’m sure there have been many baseball players and manager who were worse human beings than Pete Rose. But as long as their crimes were unrelated to baseball, that’s unimportant. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/28 "2005-11-25T03:12:22Z")
Yeah, and like I said, I know next to nothing about baseball, and what I do know is mostly limited to the Pirates, being a native yinzer an’at. On a lighter note, what is UP with that hideous Prince Valiant haircut? Who the hell told him that looked good? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/29 "2005-11-25T03:47:08Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > On a lighter note, what is UP with that hideous Prince Valiant haircut? Who the hell told him that looked good? Donald Trump. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/30 "2005-11-25T03:54:53Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Yeah, and like I said, I know next to nothing about baseball, and what I do know is mostly limited to the Pirates, being a native yinzer an’at. > > On a lighter note, what is UP with that hideous Prince Valiant haircut? Who the hell told him that looked good? He wore that cut when playing for the Phillies-mebbe he just hasn’t changed barbers. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/31 "2005-11-25T14:28:44Z")
I’ll expand on what others have said. Betting on your own team, even it it’s only betting on your own team to win, it a horrible thing for the game. It means that the manager can, and probably will, make moves that are good for that particular game _at the expense of winning other games_. For example, he could not play his hot closer the day before the game on which he bet so he would be more fresh the next day. He could have one of his players make a more agressive move than necessary which would increase the risk of injury, not to win the game but to needlessly increase the score so he could beat the spread. Anyway, why gambling is bad for baseball isn’t the point. The point is that there is a rule in place, he agreed to the rule, he broke the rule, he agreed to the punishment. No HOF for you. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/32 "2005-11-25T14:34:54Z")
Weird isn’t it? The guy is a millionaire. He has everything I work so hard to get. Somehow the fact there is no picture of him in the Hall of Fame is a big deal to him. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/33 "2005-11-25T18:50:32Z")
> [@don't ask](#): > > Most edifying, particularly **WordMan** ’s post, **astorian** ’s maintain the rage stance and **Glassy** ’s suspicions. > > Are records of Rose’s bets available? Has anyone ever tried to analyse his management decisions on the occassions he bet against his team? > > Oh, and thanks. You can find the report on the MLB’s investigation of Rose’s betting [here](http://www.dowdreport.com/) - that site also has the agreement between Rose and MLB that placed him on the permanently ineligible list. It’s important to note that the MLB investigation was never finished and baseball never drew any formal conclusions in the matter. Instead, Giamatti determined that it was in the best interests of the sport (and probably the best interests of Rose as well) to conclude the matter as quickly as possible. A couple of excerpts from the agreement: > [@Rose and Giamatti](#): > > On May 9, 1989, the Special Counsel provided a 225 page report, accompanied by seven volumes of exhibits, to the Commissioner. On May 11, 1989, the Commissioner provided a copy of the report and exhibits to Peter Edward Rose and his counsel, and scheduled a hearing on May 25, 1989 to give Peter Edward Rose an opportunity to respond formally to the information in the report. Peter Edward Rose received, read, and is aware of the contents of the report. On May 19, 1989, Peter Edward Rose requested, and subsequently received, an extension of the hearing date until June 26, 1989. Peter Edward Rose acknowledges that the Commissioner has treated him fairly in this Agreement and has acted in good faith throughout the course of the investigation and proceedings. > > [snip] > > Peter Edward Rose acknowledges that the Commissioner has a factual basis to impose the penalty provided herein, and hereby accepts the penalty imposed on him by the Commissioner and agrees not to challenege that penalty in court or otherwise. He also agrees that he will not institute any legal proceedings of any nature against the Commissioner or any of his representatives, either Major League, or any Major League Club. > > [snip] > > Nothing in this Agreement shall be deemed either an admission or a denial by Peter Edward Rose of the allegation that he bet on any Major League Baseball game. This agreement ended MLB’s investigation of the issue before the league had made any conclusions based on the Dowd report. It also halted a second phase of the investigation - Dowd had found some evidence that Rose had actually bet _against_ the Reds as well, and had asked Giamatti for additional time to gather more evidence. Signing the agreeement put a stop to this investigation completely. After he signed it, Rose spent sixteen or seventeen years vehemently attacking John Dowd and Giamatti (posthumously, in the commissioner’s case) before he wrote a book admitting that they were right all along. The man’s a piece of shit. Incidentally, the term “lifetime ban” is more shorthand than an accurate description of MLB’s position. Rose (and others) are on the “Permanently Ineligible List.” Permanent extends beyond lifetime - the Black Sox players are still on the list, for example. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/34 "2005-11-25T19:01:05Z")
Some members of the 1877 Louisville team in the NL are still on the Permanently Ineligible List, which wasn’t formally created until Rose was up for the HOF. ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/35 "2005-11-25T22:23:04Z")
I’m not really a baseball fan, but what pisses me off the most about Pete Rose was the fact that he sat there and lied and lied and lied, and let so many of his fans believe he was telling the truth and vociferously defend him. Maybe I should just figure his fans were suckers for believing him in the first place, but it just pisses me off. I don’t know, I couldn’t in good conscious continue lying when I knew that other people were defending me so strongly. One thing for me to look like an ass when the truth comes out - an entirely other thing when other people do on my behalf. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/36 "2005-11-25T23:29:56Z")
> [@Glassy](#): > > Ooh! So to sum up: sportsmanlike behavior = girl stuff = contemptible and beneath him. > > I hate him even more now. > > Thanks, **hajario**! 🙂 Two things here, one right, one wrong. Taking a catcher out to score a run isn’t unsportsmanlike, it’s done all the time in Major League games. It’s part of the sport, you don’t go out of your way to hurt someone, but hey, it happens. It’s a physical sport. It’s not as physical as football or rugby but people still collide legally at times. But yeah, he’s way off base about girl’s softball. Softball while it doesn’t allow taking a lead is in most other ways similar to baseball in its intensity and physicality. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2005, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/37 "2005-11-26T00:07:54Z")
> [@don't ask](#): > > What is it about the Pete Rose gambling story, or alternatively the collected American psyche that allows this continued level of invective toward Rose for having bets on a sport he knew enough about to bet on? In the early eras of baseball betting on games by players and managers was actually pretty widespread, and people really didn’t care too much about it. Rigging games was also not an unheard of thing by any means. But when the world series in 1919 was rigged, baseball realized this all had to change, and big time, or the entire sport could lose it’s popularity and the game itself could die out. So ever since that time we’ve basically held that gambling being involved with members of MLB is a bad thing. And it really only makes sense. If you’re involved in lots of gambling relating to baseball and you PLAY or manage baseball, there’s way too much chance we start getting into impropriety. So baseball rules forbid it. Basically he broke the rules and people see that as cheating, and baseball is supposed to be wholesome, like Grandma and piping-hot apple pie, Pete Rose violated that with his gambling. > [@](#): > > The idea of punishing someone after their career by denying them a rightful plaudit would be anethema to most Aussies. Induction to the Hall of Fame isn’t purely a measure of on-field performance and never has been in baseball. > [@](#): > > And if a court decided that non baseball stuff didn’t count and they had to let Pete in - whose been warming his seat? Which guy shouldn’t be there? A court would have no right to involve itself in this matter. The Baseball Hall of Fame is a private entity, and it isn’t even controlled or operated by Major League Baseball. The Baseball Hall of Fame gets to set up the rules fo election and eligibility, and one rule they passed after the Rose debacle was that anyone who is on MLB’s permanently ineligible list is not eligible to appear on a BBHOF ballot. As for guys who shouldn’t be in the HOF? There’s a few of them out there. Pee Wee Reese, Rabbit Maranville, and Louis Aparicio, have no business being in the Hall of Fame. ---
**Author:** ![Glassy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@Glassy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glassy)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2005, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/38 "2005-11-26T00:10:48Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Taking a catcher out to score a run isn’t unsportsmanlike, it’s done all the time in Major League games. It’s part of the sport, you don’t go out of your way to hurt someone, but hey, it happens. It’s a physical sport. It’s not as physical as football or rugby but people still collide legally at times. Well … I should explain why I used the adjective “unsportsmanlike.” In her original post, **EJsGirl** said Rose “went in way too hard” and took the guy out for the season, which gave me the impression that he \*deliberately \* injured the catcher. Which, in my opinion, would be unsportsmanlike regardless of the game. But of course I did not see the incident, have no idea what really happened, and am just blowing smoke. I’ll stop now. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2005, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/39 "2005-11-26T00:27:21Z")
The catcher in question was Ray Fosse, who was not out for the rest of the season. Fosse caught 10 games in the 9 days after the incident. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2005, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574/40 "2005-11-26T01:06:18Z")
> [@Glassy](#): > > Well … I should explain why I used the adjective “unsportsmanlike.” In her original post, **EJsGirl** said Rose “went in way too hard” and took the guy out for the season, which gave me the impression that he \*deliberately \* injured the catcher. Which, in my opinion, would be unsportsmanlike regardless of the game. > > But of course I did not see the incident, have no idea what really happened, and am just blowing smoke. I’ll stop now. The main issue about the “girls softball” incident was that it was the All Star game iirc. It adds nothing to the stats. It doesn’t count in the win loss. It’s a meaningless fluff good time game. For him to go in hard and try to take out the catcher is mildly unsportsmanlike and majorly assholish. It helps prove that the guy was a jerk of legendary quality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-level-of-hatred-toward-pete-rose/332574.md?page=3)