# Why the need to cry "Lie"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-cry-lie/464460 "2008-09-20T18:23:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-cry-lie/464460/101 "2008-09-23T15:24:17Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > In the third thread today, I will point out that for the past sixty plus years, the Democrats appear to be the party of fiscal responsibility, based on [public debt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt). At the end of WWII, we had a pretty high public debt. This started coming down under Truman and continued to under Eisenhower. It went along with fairly minor ups and downs until Reagan. It then had its largest expansion ever. This continued through Bush 41 and the first couple of years of Clinton, then he turned it around and brought it back down to about the level it was when he came into office. It started skyrocketing again in 2000. Glad to hear it. Wouldn’t you also have to look at tax rates in those periods? Like most things, taxing and spending is a matter of balance. > [@](#): > > Now, you may not agree about the desirability of social programs. But if you look at Obama’s, they tend very strongly toward the “teach a man to fish” type, rather than the “give a man a fish” sort. Also, the era of the “welfare queen” driving a Cadillac with ten kids, if ever that sort of thing existed more than in a tiny handful of people, has been long gone. Believe me when I tell you, welfare is not a disincentive to work; it is not enough for anyone to live on. In conjunction with food stamps, it might be enough to rent a room (not an apartment) and eat, but you sure as heck had better not get sick. I’m not against social programs. I’m just aware of some of the problems. I’ve heard Obama speak of personal responsibility and a work ethic several times. I’m willing to see how his programs work and I believe we can tweak them after the fact. Moderate republicans such as Christine Todd Whitman when she was Governor of NJ have done good things as well. Her Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunities Reconciliation Act of 1996 made some good changes. I’m not sure how welfare has changed but years ago I saw abuses by recipients and providers. I doubt we will eliminate those completely in the near future. I’m all for helping others but I do think something should be required of them as well. One problem I saw was that as soon as a single Mom started working, she lost support that far outweighed her income, so the incentive to work was gone. It seemed just plain stupid to me. Low income housing meant rent was decided based on income and the tax payers picked up the rest so it definitely provided apartments. As far as getting sick goes, you might be surprised how many people use the emergency room as their health care provider. My son was just telling me about one of his workers who qualifies for all kinds of help because his overtime, which he gets every week, doesn’t qualify as regular income. While the tax payers help pay his bills he buys snowmobiles and ATVs. Social programs aren’t evil. Neither are they all nobility and compassion. They need to be reviewed and improved on a regular basis. > [@](#): > > Also, while I too believe in personal responsibility, how long should you and your children and grandchildren pay for a mistake you may have made in your early teens? Let’s say you were a poor girl who got knocked up at 14. You chose because of your religion and/or social pressure to not abort and to keep the baby. Your parents were either irresponsible themselves (if there at all), or too busy working making ends meet to help you out with the baby, so there was the end of you education. So there you are, a few years later, stuck in minimum wage jobs with no education, no future, and your kid or kids probably headed in the same direction because you don’t have any alternatives to offer them. This isn’t just bad for you. It’s bad for all of us; it costs us money, and it makes us much less competitive as a nation. Isn’t it better for us all in the long run to try to break the cycle? Unfortunately, these days the long run gets short shrift in our thinking. I agree. Let’s provide opportunities for people to get their lives on track. I think making quality education available to as many as possible benefits our society as a whole. Providing an opportunity for people to lift themselves up and become working contributing members of society benefits us all. Still, the government cannot provide motivation and determination for others. What happens when that same single Mom chooses not to take advantage of education opportunities and decides she’d rather work minimum wage jobs while other tax payers take up the slack and her boyfriend lives with her in her subsidized apartment?We need to find the balance between providing opportunity and removing the obstacles we can, while still letting people bear{Please God let this be the right word:)} the consequences of their own actions. It will never be ideal. If a few assholes benefit while a lot more good people are lifted into society I’m all for it. > [@](#): > > But frankly, I consider the civil liberties and the corruption/transparency issues even more important than these financial issues. If I thought McCain would fix the abuses of the Bush 43 administration and that Obama would not, this election would be a very tough choice for me, because I don’t hate McCain (although he’s working at getting me to, and Palin is just another W). I agree. I think we need to insist on some serious changes in campaign finance and government transparency to the point where we just start throwing people out of office who won’t support them, regardless of party. To do that we need to stay involved and aware after the elections are over. We need to give up a little of our entertainment time to be involved. I’d like to see some bipartisan citizen groups get organized for this purpose. A republican friend of mine and I have talked about forming such a group here in Nashville. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-cry-lie/464460/102 "2008-09-23T19:39:02Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I agree. I think we need to insist on some serious changes in campaign finance and government transparency to the point where we just start throwing people out of office who won’t support them, regardless of party. To do that we need to stay involved and aware after the elections are over. We need to give up a little of our entertainment time to be involved. I’d like to see some bipartisan citizen groups get organized for this purpose. A republican friend of mine and I have talked about forming such a group here in Nashville. I think that’s terrific. I hope interest in public affairs remains high after the elections, but I kind of doubt it will be the case. If Obama gets elected, some of the young folks may stay engaged, but if he loses, they’re gone. Hell, if he loses, I’m probably gone - I won’t be able to deal with my sense of alienation and will have to back off for a while, as I did in 2004. I couldn’t watch the news for several months after that election; just had to pretend current affairs didn’t exist. It wasn’t that I liked Kerry so much, but I couldn’t believe we had re-elected Bush 43 after knowing what he had already done. Still can’t believe it. Still wondering about Ohio, actually. Paperless voting machines are _not_ a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-cry-lie/464460/103 "2008-09-23T20:45:06Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > I think that’s terrific. I hope interest in public affairs remains high after the elections, but I kind of doubt it will be the case. If Obama gets elected, some of the young folks may stay engaged, but if he loses, they’re gone. Hell, if he loses, I’m probably gone - I won’t be able to deal with my sense of alienation and will have to back off for a while, as I did in 2004. I couldn’t watch the news for several months after that election; just had to pretend current affairs didn’t exist. It wasn’t that I liked Kerry so much, but I couldn’t believe we had re-elected Bush 43 after knowing what he had already done. Still can’t believe it. Still wondering about Ohio, actually. Paperless voting machines are _not_ a good thing. I’m predicting it may be Michigan this year but maybe not. The election hanky panky is pretty disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-cry-lie/464460/104 "2008-09-24T11:28:18Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > “he lied, he’s a liar!” Or she. Thought you might interested in seeing that term of art used 12 separate times [here](http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/09/the-twelve-odd.html) ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2008, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-cry-lie/464460/105 "2008-09-24T19:40:20Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Or she. Thought you might interested in seeing that term of art used 12 separate times [here](http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/09/the-twelve-odd.html) Are you suggesting she was mistaken about these things? That she was confused? That she didn’t remember correctly? What exactly is the alternative to “she’s lying” in this context? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-cry-lie/464460.md?page=5)