# Why the need to deny bias that others have experienced? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2010, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164 "2010-11-10T13:06:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/41 "2010-11-10T18:39:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > “I don’t know that word, and therefore nobody else does.” :rolleyes: I don’t know a lot of words, but they’re used nonetheless. Niggardly isn’t causally used outside of Eng lit. and it’s comparison to Nigger. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/42 "2010-11-10T18:41:48Z")
The example of assigning training not based on merit was given to my co-worker days later as an example of one way it matters whether a manager is making decisions based on stereotypes instead of merit. I did not bring anything like that when giving my observations about the candidate after the interview. That example is drawn from my experience. Fortunately, my direct manager went to bat for me, taking my cause up the ladder. It proved a good move. The project was a success, where the male co-worker originally suggested for the training left without notice leaving large caches of porn on servers he had access to. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/43 "2010-11-10T18:43:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Nobody said it was a world-shattering mistake. You were still wrong. And I don’t see why you need to make any assumptions about this in either direction. Maybe, because I make assumptions about various things I experience in life. You? ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/44 "2010-11-10T18:48:52Z")
> [@lee](#): > > What prompts this is he has badgered me each day about my observation, trying to get me to recant or admit that sexism isn’t really a problem in the us and has never really been an issue for me. 1. Is sexism a problem in the US? Not really. Not in my experieince. Oh, sure, there are men who feel superior to women and there are women who feel superior to men. But in general, I do not believe sexism in the US is widespread enough to be a significant obstacle for men or women to overcome in day to day life. 2. Has sexisn been an issue for you? I have no idea. You may have experience real sexism. You may have percieved sexism where it was not. Who can know? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/45 "2010-11-10T18:56:12Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > 1. Is sexism a problem in the US? Not really. Not in my experieince. Oh, sure, there are men who feel superior to women and there are women who feel superior to men. But in general, I do not believe sexism in the US is widespread enough to be a significant obstacle for men or women to overcome in day to day life. As a male in a high tech world, I can assure you that it is still an issue for many women. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/46 "2010-11-10T19:14:44Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > So that’s why this guy is insulted and keeps bringing it up. You implied that he has an advantage that you don’t- a penis. And that hurts him for all the above reasons. It’s the level of insult (insultedness?) that intrigues me. Why do people get so vitriolic when it’s pointed out, even when it’s not _their_ racism? And these same people, like you, tend to dismiss racism as this fun, convenient little thing minorities get to use when they don’t get their way. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/47 "2010-11-10T19:14:49Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Ouch. I found that thread and what creeped me out the most was the, “Well, what if that area really IS dirtier after the black kids use it? Hey! Maybe they came from Africa recently and they just don’t shower as much because of cultural reasons.” Yup, let’s bend over backwards to find a reason why the racist person is in the right… Well, you know, she may have had good reason for calling people niglets. You just can’t leap to judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/48 "2010-11-10T19:20:26Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Maybe, because I make assumptions about various things I experience in life. You? When I find my assumptions are wrong, I try to correct them or stop making them. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/49 "2010-11-10T19:22:23Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Here lies John Smith, honky. > 1903-1978 > > R. I. P. 😛 Spellchecker strikes again. “Epithet.” ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/50 "2010-11-10T19:23:18Z")
It’s confirmation bias in action. People remember when the group they identify with is persecuted. There are plenty of cases of real racism and sexism, and I’m sure a black or female knows several of them offhand. There are times when cries of racism/sexism are flat out wrong or, worse still, used as an attack, and I’m sure a white or male can give several examples of that. Each side remembers the times they were under attack and forget the times the other person was. So, when some new instance happens, it gets filtered through that perception. I don’t know enough details to say if Lee is right or her co-worker. I do know that it’s no surprise at all the Lee would assume sexism while her male co-worker would assume she’s being hyper-paranoid. This is actually a very mild form of confirmation bias. I’ve seen much larger divides before. Just ask an average white and an average black on their opinions of the OJ murder trial for example. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/51 "2010-11-10T19:23:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > When I find my assumptions are wrong, I try to correct them or stop making them. Yes, that’s what step 2 is for. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/52 "2010-11-10T19:29:42Z")
I can know. Once i had such irrational push back from a user, starting during our first phone conversation; he was fine in email and chat before that. He did think I was male because I had to spend half the call explaining that i was lee, not lee’s assistant. A conversation during which he emailed me about my inappropiate assistant. He steadfastly refused to implement the integration according to my direction. He brought a non-technical woman and only talked to me through her. He insisted i make silly changes i could not make, like moving the pdc emulator to the dc in his site. Finally fed up with his nonsense, i got my very much less technical team member on the call and had him follow the script i wrote for him. The sexist customer finally implemented the integration as i specified, but only because i got a man to tell him what to do. It was not the last time i had to use such a ruse. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/53 "2010-11-10T19:32:05Z")
> [@lee](#): > > Among my observations was a difference in the candidate’s response to me and the male interviewer and also a reference to a group of technicians using a gendered term. The continued coy response to requests for details is causing me to infer that the OP intuits that sharing those details will not be positive for her case. “A reference to a group of technicians using a gendered term.” You do realize, **lee** , that English does not have a gender-neutral pronoun, right? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/54 "2010-11-10T19:33:56Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Yes, that’s what step 2 is for. Then shouldn’t you be making step two now? > [@Bricker](#): > > But if you were to then learn that the racial epitaph in question was “niggardly,” as in, “We’ll have to be niggardly with this year’s budget,” and that the man had no history of racial comments, the story – and the conclusion – changes. Incredibly, when this happened in real life some people were still adamantly of the opinion that the department head should still lose his job; it was insensitive, according to them, to even use a word that _sounded_ like the n-word, even though “niggardly” means ‘miserly,’ and has no etymological connection to the offensive racial slur. > [@orcenio](#): > > I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume that someone who drops “niggardly” in casual speech is race-baiting (unless they are referencing Chaucer/Shakespeare). > > Of course, they could be just naive; but that isn’t my first assumption… > [@Marley23](#): > > [Here’s what actually happened.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/williams/williams020499.htm) > [@orcenio](#): > > I’m still not going to change the order of my assumptions > > 1. Race-baiting > …2) Naive ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/55 "2010-11-10T19:35:09Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > 1. Is sexism a problem in the US? Not really. Not in my experieince. Oh, sure, there are men who feel superior to women and there are women who feel superior to men. But in general, I do not believe sexism in the US is widespread enough to be a significant obstacle for men or women to overcome in day to day life. Perhaps. My experience differs from yours. There is FAR less sexism, today, than there was in the 1970s, (just as racism is far less a problem), but it has not disappeared. At the company where I work, one of the units only began ignoring sex when handing out assignments in the last year. It is not a big deal, in this case, because the assignments do not result in restrictions on career path and the wage is only marginally lower for only the first year, or so, but I have still seen a few similar phenomena in much higher tech situations with greater impact on earnings or potential growth in the last few years. Such situations are disappearing and they affect far fewer people than previously, but they are not merely historical anecdotes of a now resolved problem. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/56 "2010-11-10T19:36:35Z")
I think the “niggardly” discussion deserves its own thread, rather than continuing to hijack this one. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/57 "2010-11-10T19:36:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Then shouldn’t you be making step two now? You make the assumption that I haven’t already done so. > [@orcenio](#): > > I stand by my post. People who use ‘Niggardly’ may just be naive. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/58 "2010-11-10T20:39:38Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > No, but Kite is a commonly used word and toy. Niggardly isn’t known or used in any casual/formal speech. The only instances anyone has heard/used it, is in discussions of English literature or in reference to it’s similarity to Nigger. > > So when I hear it outside of these contexts I assume someone is race-baiting. Not the same as Kite. Not even close. Thing is - until now at least - I would use the word, and its similarity to the offensvive term simply wouldn’t occur to me - until someone start claimnig I was racist. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/59 "2010-11-10T20:43:37Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > At the company where I work, one of the units only began ignoring sex when handing out assignments in the last year. It is not a big deal, in this case, because the assignments do not result in restrictions on career path and the wage is only marginally lower for only the first year, or so, [snip] Wow, was this practice of assigning tasks based on gender even legal? Obviously, I have no idea what the nature of these assignments was, but if gender \*should \*not have been a deciding factor, I can’t imagine how the organization could have legally defended themselves. [Quote=tomndebb] [cont] but I have still seen a few similar phenomena in much higher tech situations with greater impact on earnings or potential growth in the last few years. [/QUOTE] There are stats out there now that indicate that a significant part of any earnings gap can be explained by women’s attitudes when taking a job. Typically, women are less likely to negotiate things like responsibilities, salaries and costs. [CITE](http://www.womendontask.com/stats.html) I guess situations such as the one lee and tomndebb have described do still exist. But it’s been my observation (which may be limited because I’m in a field that does not attract many women in the first place) that women do not suffer a disadvantage in the workplace. ---
**Author:** ![nolonger\_lurking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/41988e/32.png) [@nolonger\_lurking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nolonger_lurking)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/60 "2010-11-10T21:59:17Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > 1. Is sexism a problem in the US? Not really. Not in my experieince. Oh, sure, there are men who feel superior to women and there are women who feel superior to men. But in general, I do not believe sexism in the US is widespread enough to be a significant obstacle for men or women to overcome in day to day life. A woman I work with commented on an odd email she had received about keeping the break room clean. It turned out that email was sent to all the (few) women in the department, but none of the men. She has also noted that, when she is the only woman in the room, some groups of engineers start telling jokes and using language that makes her very uncomfortable. None of this (at our company) rises to the level of pay or promotion discrimination, as far as I can tell. That doesn’t mean it isn’t an obstacle that must be overcome on a daily basis. > [@](#): > > There are stats out there now that indicate that a significant part of any earnings gap can be explained by women’s attitudes when taking a job. Typically, women are less likely to negotiate things like responsibilities, salaries and costs. Part of the “behavior” that is controlled for in these studies is the tendency of women to leave the workforce more than men. Of course, if the few women in a department are subjected to belittling comments, assumed to be secretaries rather than engineers, and are made uncomfortable by crude and sexist language, they will leave the workforce disproportionately. Unfortunately, this helps to perpetuate the boy’s club environment, especially among senior staff. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164.md?page=4)