# Why the need to deny bias that others have experienced? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2010, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164 "2010-11-10T13:06:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/61 "2010-11-10T22:02:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The continued coy response to requests for details is causing me to infer that the OP intuits that sharing those details will not be positive for her case. > > “A reference to a group of technicians using a gendered term.” > > You do realize, **lee** , that English does not have a gender-neutral pronoun, right? I’ll be generous, and assume that the OP doesn’t want to place such sensitive work details all over the public internet. She likely knows that it is a bad idea to publicize the details of employment decisions in this way. This raises, of course, the question of why she started this discussion in the first place, but that can’t be helped. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/62 "2010-11-11T02:01:49Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > It’s the level of insult (insultedness?) that intrigues me. Why do people get so vitriolic when it’s pointed out, even when it’s not _their_ racism? And these same people, like you, tend to dismiss racism as this fun, convenient little thing minorities get to use when they don’t get their way. I wouldn’t say there’s “vitriol” about it. I’d say it’s simply “fucking annoying”. I don’t deal well with whiners, which I find 90% of civilians to be. > [@nolonger\_lurking](#): > > A woman I work with commented on an odd email she had received about keeping the break room clean. It turned out that email was sent to all the (few) women in the department, but none of the men. > She has also noted that, when she is the only woman in the room, some groups of engineers start telling jokes and using language that makes her very uncomfortable. None of this (at our company) rises to the level of pay or promotion discrimination, as far as I can tell. That doesn’t mean it isn’t an obstacle that must be overcome on a daily basis. > > Part of the “behavior” that is controlled for in these studies is the tendency of women to leave the workforce more than men. Of course, if the few women in a department are subjected to belittling comments, assumed to be secretaries rather than engineers, and are made uncomfortable by crude and sexist language, they will leave the workforce disproportionately. Unfortunately, this helps to perpetuate the boy’s club environment, especially among senior staff. This is a perfect example of why sexism is a difficult thing to pin down. First of all, it’s not like there are multiple sexes out there. Secondly, they’re pretty evenly split- if anything, men are the minority. And thirdly, there are real, true differences between men and women and that’s not going to change…ever. We’re forced to make assumptions about people we encounter on a daily basis. One of those assumptions is that women feel uncomfortable with crude sexual humor. Another (less relevant to the thread) is that women are more emotional. So the question arises - when does “warranted assumption” become “sexism”? If the guys knew to watch their crude humor when this woman was around, would that be sexist of them, or is it a warranted assumption that women, including the female coworker, don’t like that language? If the guys found a lean cuisine container left on the counter, is it sexist to assume it belongs to a woman or is that warranted? My point is this: Racism and sexism are two entirely different things. It’s a lot easier to see when something is racist than when it’s sexist. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/63 "2010-11-11T02:15:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The continued coy response to requests for details is causing me to infer that the OP intuits that sharing those details will not be positive for her case. > > “A reference to a group of technicians using a gendered term.” > > You do realize, **lee** , that English does not have a gender-neutral pronoun, right? On the contrary, since it was a group, introducing gender is more of a challenge than avoiding it. Choices which avoided gender include: the technicians, the team, the team members, the techs, the analysts, the tech group. I expect candidates in an interview to use best practices in verbal and non-verbal communications. That includes using gender neutral language where possible. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/64 "2010-11-11T02:50:07Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > I guess situations such as the one lee and tomndebb have described do still exist. But it’s been my observation (which may be limited because I’m in a field that does not attract many women in the first place) that women do not suffer a disadvantage in the workplace. As i noted, the problems have gotten much less over the years. I am aware that part of the sex differences in pay are directly related to traditional child-rearing roles and similar phenomena and I am not making any claim that the life of women in the workplace is hell. I am simply noting that sexism still occurs, so observations that it is relegated to histry surprise me. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/65 "2010-11-11T02:56:35Z")
> [@lee](#): > > I expect candidates in an interview to use best practices in verbal and non-verbal communications. That includes using gender neutral language where possible. While I certainly agree with your major point in the OP that a co-worker who obsesses for days about a single remark in an interview analysis has a problem, (and further agree that there are a remarkable number of such people in the world), I am not sure that I can support the idea that any verbal communication that is not ruthlessly gender neutral says anything more than that a person happens to have come from an environment where gender neutrality was not a hallmark of routine speech. I worked for a guy for 19 years whose language was pretty much never gender neutral, but who always put the right person on the right task, (either technical or managerial), regardless of sex, and paid his people strictly on merit, regardless of sex. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/66 "2010-11-11T05:34:21Z")
The language thing doesn’t make me think the candidate is likely to actually make choices based on stereotype. It is relevant because it is not conforming to best business communication practices. I found it grating, and so it might others. It stuck out to me much as would use of a swear. I am not offended by casual use of strong language, but would make a note of the use of a swear by a candidate. I found the other bit more telling, the contrast in manner of response to questions asked by me against the manner of response to questions asked by the male interviewer. I mentioned both things as minor notes in my summary of my impression of the candidate among several other mostly positive notes. Despite these being minor notes, my co-worker has repeatedly brought them up. I wasn’t dwelling on it; he was. In the discussion of this in days since the interview, I brought up various bits of bias (in response to his questions) that I have observed or personally faced, and he has seized on each trying to dismiss it in one way or another. He has repeatedly tried to get me to admit that sexism is no longer a issue in the US. I find it fascinating the contortions he goes through to try to justify or deny each and everyone, even those that are as flatly biased as the email mentioned by **nolonger lurking**. He is normally a logical person, and quite capable of agreeing to disagree, but not on this. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/67 "2010-11-11T09:11:18Z")
Hmmm… Nothing special to add about bias, but in my experience people that use a sentence like “he used a gendered term to refer to a group of people” rather than just saying what he said are really a barrel of laughs to be around and don’t make me at all paranoid about what might possibly be construed from the niggardly way I use my language skills. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/68 "2010-11-11T10:36:40Z")
> [@lee](#): > > I expect candidates in an interview to use best practices in verbal and non-verbal communications. That includes using gender neutral language where possible. Seriously? I’m more likely to think _less_ positively of someone in a job interview (or anywhere else, actually) trying to use “gender-neutral” language, since they’re clearly touchy-feely/politically correct/Lefty/other things I hate. > [@lee](#): > > He steadfastly refused to implement the integration according to my direction. He brought a non-technical woman and only talked to me through her. He insisted i make silly changes i could not make, like moving the pdc emulator to the dc in his site. Finally fed up with his nonsense, i got my very much less technical team member on the call and had him follow the script i wrote for him. The sexist customer finally implemented the integration as i specified, but only because i got a man to tell him what to do. I’m still amazed how often we get customers at work brushing off the female staff and asking “If there’s a man they can talk to” in relation to… well, pretty much anything even slightly technical. And funnily enough, when that happens, it usually coincides with the male staff being very busy with other customers and therefore unable to help… Odd that. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/69 "2010-11-11T14:21:24Z")
> [@lee](#): > > On the contrary, since it was a group, introducing gender is more of a challenge than avoiding it. Choices which avoided gender include: the technicians, the team, the team members, the techs, the analysts, the tech group. > > I expect candidates in an interview to use best practices in verbal and non-verbal communications. That includes using gender neutral language where possible. Again without specifics of the sentence, I can’t form an opinion about which choice would constitute a more awkward or tortured construction. Certainly all of the examples you offer above seem quite reasonable, but you still offer them devoid of the context of a complete sentence. I don’t share your view that using gender neutral language where possible is a high priority for persons primarily intended to be solving IT or other technical issues, at least at the interview stage, and I’d be curious to learn if this priority arises from specific interview guidance from your employer, or if you, ever-alert to gender issues in society, have imputed it into your interview process. That’s OK – long ago, I knew a guy who subtly sought to discover what football teams an interview candidate supported. He was fine if the candidate wasn’t a football follower, and fine with a majority of teams, but woe betide to the candidate who admitted being a Dolphins fan. It was foolish, of course, and undoubtedly caused him to lose out on good talent, but to him, some things were more important than the actual work to be accomplished. And my suspicion is that the same thing can be said of you. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/70 "2010-11-11T14:42:56Z")
What is even considered gender neutral language when speaking about unknown individuals? Like I said upthread, if refering to a group of techs you said, “those guys do great work…” would that constitute gender specific language? Doesn’t the term “guys” typically just mean a group of people, regardless of gender, or am I way out of touch? And in referring to an individual, should you always say something like, “if one were to apply blah blah blah…” instead of “if he were to apply blah blah blah?” In writing papers, I’ve been told to not do the old he/she or to constantly use “one” when referring to an individual. Rather, always use “he” or alternate “he” and “she” in different topics/chapters whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/71 "2010-11-11T15:10:26Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > What is even considered gender neutral language when speaking about unknown individuals? Like I said upthread, if refering to a group of techs you said, “those guys do great work…” would that constitute gender specific language? Doesn’t the term “guys” typically just mean a group of people, regardless of gender, or am I way out of touch? And in referring to an individual, should you always say something like, “if one were to apply blah blah blah…” instead of “if he were to apply blah blah blah?” In writing papers, I’ve been told to not do the old he/she or to constantly use “one” when referring to an individual. Rather, always use “he” or alternate “he” and “she” in different topics/chapters whatever. Given **lee** ’s interest in issues of gender politics, combined with the coy refusal to actually disclose the offense, I am strongly leaning towards it being just what you describe: “Those guys did great work,” or “When I worked with those guys…” I suspect **lee** sought the validation of the group for the issue of “Other not agreeing with accusations of bias,” but didn’get into the specific language knowing that there would be much less sympathy for the claim of bias if the specifics were known. Of course, that’s merely speculation, and it could be completely in error. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/72 "2010-11-11T15:43:07Z")
Some of this thread is just screaming for some remedial 80’s film lessons… > [@](#): > > Tim: Anybody wanna go fly a kite with me tonight? I hear it’s great weather for flying _kites_! I wonder if there’s any _kites_ around here we can fly! > Brian: Hey listen, Cavanaugh. It’s not “kite”, it’s “kike”. K-I-K-E, kike. You know, you’re too stupid to even be a good bigot… ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/73 "2010-11-11T16:16:13Z")
One reason I have not specified any more details is that specifics are irrelevant here. I made an observation of a difference in a candidate’s response to a male vs a female interviewer and related that observation in my notes on the interview. I am not asking whether in anyone else’s opinion the difference means anything. This thread is about how some people cannot let stand any observation of bias and will go to lengths to trivialize and deny it. I think that this thread well demonstrates the phenomena. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/74 "2010-11-11T16:26:55Z")
> [@lee](#): > > This thread is about how some people cannot let stand any observation of bias and will go to lengths to trivialize and deny it. I think that this thread well demonstrates the phenomena. You are taking it for granted that you really observed bias. I would not necessarily assume that this is true. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/75 "2010-11-11T16:51:32Z")
Frankly the OP could be spot on or could be hypersensitive. I can’t tell and won’t presume. That seems to be the position of others here. I won’t back her up or run her down without more information - and if she is unwilling to provide that she won’t find any support from me for her position. I can’t judge unless I know what was said. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/76 "2010-11-11T17:16:03Z")
> [@lee](#): > > One reason I have not specified any more details is that specifics are irrelevant here. I made an observation of a difference in a candidate’s response to a male vs a female interviewer and related that observation in my notes on the interview. I am not asking whether in anyone else’s opinion the difference means anything. This thread is about how some people cannot let stand any observation of bias and will go to lengths to trivialize and deny it. I think that this thread well demonstrates the phenomena. To the contrary, the validation of bias requires that the commentators agree that your observations constitute evidence of bias. You are, in effect, asserting that your observation meant something, and asking for agreement for the proposition that others will readily discount it. My point is that others will more readily discount an observation of bias that’s phony, one poorly-grounded in fact. So the validity of your complaint rests, to a great extent, on the validity of the underlying observation. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/77 "2010-11-11T17:26:13Z")
> [@lee](#): > > One reason I have not specified any more details is that specifics are irrelevant here. I made an observation of a difference in a candidate’s response to a male vs a female interviewer and related that observation in my notes on the interview. I am not asking whether in anyone else’s opinion the difference means anything. This thread is about how some people cannot let stand any observation of bias and will go to lengths to trivialize and deny it. . But you are trivializing and denying \*his observation \*that there was no bias. It’s also your OP, you are being unnessarily coy. The only reason I can suppose for this is the suggestion **Bricker** gives. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/78 "2010-11-11T18:37:47Z")
Lee, you are displaying the same type of magical thinking people use when talking about. Whether something is “immoral” or not–you are elevationg your lowly humble oipinion to the status of a statement of objective truth. You are treating your “observation of bias” as some act that must be respected by all. All you did was state your opinion. Your opinion doesn’t create a duty for others to do anything or deserve any greater respect than anyone else’s opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/79 "2010-11-11T18:42:05Z")
> [@lee](#): > > -snip- This thread is about how some people cannot let stand any observation of bias and will go to lengths to trivialize and deny it. I think that this thread well demonstrates the phenomena. The obvious answer to your query, which is what has been well demonstrated here, is that an observation of bias may not have been observed by the other party. Bias is perception. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/80 "2010-11-11T21:35:17Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Americans still believe in a thing called “whining.” On both sides. The number of times someone has whined over political correctness is probably quite balanced by the number of times someone has whined over the casual use of a term that is innocently sexist (e.g. gals, I hate gals. But I’m not going to whine about how sexist gals is. ok, maybe just a little…but its more annoying than sexist.) and vice versa. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164.md?page=5)