# Why the need to deny bias that others have experienced? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2010, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164 "2010-11-10T13:06:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/101 "2010-11-13T21:43:36Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It’s one of the things I really notice about this board. A number of posters seem to have only two choices. Something is “OMIGOD RACIST!” or it’s completely not racist. It’s “BURQA-LEVEL SEXISM!” or it’s not sexism at all. > > I don’t know why that is, but it’s very prevalent, at least here. But the question IS a dichotomy - either there is racism or there is no racism. You don’t expect anyone to be happy with being labeled “slightly racist”. For that person, either he was racist or he was not. I find your surprise over this silly. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/102 "2010-11-13T22:15:44Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I’m a woman in a technical field (IT) in a technical industry (high tech engineering and manufacturing). It HAS gotten better - way better than when I started 25 years ago. It is much less systematic than it used to be (but can occasionally be systematic). But it does happen. There are still “good ole boys” and there are still a few people pretty sure a screwdriver does not belong in the hands of a woman. \ My husband works for a construction management company that is very good in a lot of ways, but the blatant sexism that he tells me about just about takes my breath away. ETA: And they keep getting voted one of the best companies to work for in Canada and the US. I guess the people making that decision don’t differentiate between men working for them and women working for them. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > It’s one of the things I really notice about this board. A number of posters seem to have only two choices. Something is “OMIGOD RACIST!” or it’s completely not racist. It’s “BURQA-LEVEL SEXISM!” or it’s not sexism at all. > > I don’t know why that is, but it’s very prevalent, at least here. I also see a lot of people who can’t find a way to believe that someone else’s life experience is different than theirs. “I have never seen or experienced that, so you haven’t either.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/103 "2010-11-13T22:55:03Z")
> [@lee](#): > > There have been various levels of expression of bias described in this thread, from trivial to severe. I would think that response to the bias should likewise vary. Why is it that mentioning the perception of an expression of bias should be perceived as some kind of nuclear option? A job interview is one place where one should expect to be observed and evaluated on both verbal and nonverbal aspects. Why should the evaluation include only the aspects related to bias only if that the display was so egregious that it is indisputable and inarguably warrants the highest sanction? Surely bias is relative to the workplace at levels other than its very worst. And why do you steadfastly refuse to actually explain what was said? ---
**Author:** ![prettydorky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f04885/32.png) [@prettydorky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prettydorky)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/104 "2010-11-13T23:56:58Z")
I think it’s normal human defensiveness that leads people to suspect or deny someone else’s perceptions that bias occurred- usually. We don’t want it to have happened, so we try to act like it didn’t. Other times, I think it’s a ham-handed attempt to make someone feel better about the experience. So, suppose my female coworker says “I noticed he reacted differently to the men interviewing him than the women”- and I like her, and I don’t want her to feel that way. So I say “Naah, I think it was the questions Steve was asking as opposed to what Susan asked”. Then she says, “Oh, so you’re telling me it didn’t happen?!” - I’ve come from a place of good intentions but now I’m actually aggravating things, and I don’t know how to approach or repair the situation. Can I say to her, “look, all I mean is, the perception was subjective. You may not have seen it at all,” without her thinking that I’m dismissing her? Probably not. That’s when I personally would remove myself from the conversation. What’s weird to me is that your coworker dug in. I know you said you weren’t “worked up”, but did you get upset with him, or maybe argue the point emphatically, when he initially said he had not observed the same things as you? If not, I don’t think it’s normal behavior to continue to initiate conversations to try to get you to say that sexism is dead. That’s probably why people want more details- so they can figure out what is different about what happened, or what _you_ did, to make this situation weird. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/105 "2010-11-14T05:59:15Z")
I did not get worked up about the interview. I was asked for my impression, I gave it, there was a conversation and that was that. At least that was my impression and seems to be the impression of all but this one co-worker. I did not get emphatic with him over what I saw. I did point out that he said he doesn’t observe those sorts of things and the last time he tried to revisit it, reiterated the three different versions of events that he has given. He seemed annoyed at that but did not deny that he gave varying accounts. I did get quite annoyed after about the third time of him coming into my cubical specifically to argue that sexism is not an issue. But that annoyance has not led to heated words. One of his more annoying gambits is to trivialize an incident of bias by comparing it to situations not caused by bias. Such as comparing being asked explicitly to fill in for the receptionist because I was a woman to management being asked to fill in for striking workers. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/106 "2010-11-14T16:27:18Z")
> [@lee](#): > > He seemed annoyed at that but did not deny that he gave varying accounts. There are two knids of “varying accounts.” If his first account was silent on some issue, he then became aware of your interpretation, and revised his account to specifically counter some key element, that’s not a particular problem. Example of the first account: Candidate A was pleasant, friendly, and seemed knowledgable about basic technical issues. He was asked to describe the process of obtaining a DHCP address and did so correctly, although he could not identify the specific UDP ports used by the process before an IP address is assigned. Then he becomes aware of your version, and modifies his to read: Candidate A was pleasant, friendly, and seemed knowledgable about basic technical issues. He was asked to describe the process of obtaining a DHCP address and did so correctly, although he could not identify the specific UDP ports used by the process before an IP address is assigned. At no time did the candidate speak disparigingly of female engineers or exhibit bias of any kind directed at Ms. Lee, my co-interviewer. It’s true those are two versions, but one does not contradict the other. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/107 "2010-11-15T00:09:28Z")
Yeah, that strikes me as an attempt at smoke and mirrors. In this case he positively said he does not and did not take notice the kind of thing I mentioned. Then he said positively he had observed just the opposite of what I observed. When I pointed out that he had made two contradictory statements, he admitted that he had made both and they were not consistent. When asked why, he shrugged expansively. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/108 "2010-11-15T02:45:05Z")
> [@lee](#): > > Yeah, that strikes me as an attempt at smoke and mirrors. While your evasion about the dispositive issue in this thread certainly lends credence to the proposition that you have some expertise in smoke and mirrors, I disagree with your assignment of the concept here. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/109 "2010-11-15T02:54:23Z")
lee, why can’t you simply be happy having your own opinion? Why do you have to turn it into this big thing about how you think people are often dismissive of observations of bias? People just have different opinions about things, and that’s OK. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/110 "2010-11-15T03:02:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > While your evasion about the dispositive issue in this thread certainly lends credence to the proposition that you have some expertise in smoke and mirrors, I disagree with your assignment of the concept here. PMSL. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/111 "2010-11-15T03:23:34Z")
Seeing as you attacked everyone for asking for information by accusing them of sexism, I perfectly well understand why you are not believed on your accusation. Apparently, you use that type accusation as an insult. I would be disinclined to believe you, as well. Especially if you did like you did here, and won’t specifically tell what the sexist accusation was. Most likely, you insulted someone needlessly, and that person is upset with you. The sexism thing has nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/112 "2010-11-15T04:05:30Z")
Please enumerate those whom I have called sexist. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/113 "2010-11-15T04:27:06Z")
> [@lee](#): > > Please enumerate those whom I have called sexist. You called me sexist in post #72. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/114 "2010-11-15T06:57:57Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > You called me sexist in post #72. Piffle. Post #72: > [@lee](#): > > One reason I have not specified any more details is that specifics are irrelevant here. I made an observation of a difference in a candidate’s response to a male vs a female interviewer and related that observation in my notes on the interview. I am not asking whether in anyone else’s opinion the difference means anything. This thread is about how some people cannot let stand any observation of bias and will go to lengths to trivialize and deny it. I think that this thread well demonstrates the phenomena. I suspect that this thread is not going to go anywhere, at this point. Lee is asking a question regarding the general need for some people to aggressively deny various prejudices in spite of any evidence. Her co-worker’s persistence in repeatedly bringing up objections to her single observation for multiple days confirms, in her mind, that such behavior certainly occurs. (And I would tend to agree that there are people who are rudely obsessive on such topics whose behavior is similar to that which she describes.) Lee’s opponents, however, have a legitimate point in that even if her co-worker is demonstrating boorish, obsessive-compulsive behavior, that is not actually an indication that his views regarding the incident are in error. Without knowing the exact comments and context of Lee’s observations, it is not really possible for any other poster to know whether her co-worker is defensive because he refuses to recognize the prejudice expressed or whether he accurately recognized that her observations were in error and simply lacks the social skills to quit harping on a dead topic. Since I doubt that either side, here, is going to move from their current positions, I suspect that this thread is pretty futile. That said, **Blake** , you are really stretching it to make the claim you have regarding anyone accusing you of sexism. Let’s not jump through a lot of convoluted logic to take umbrage at personal comments that have not actually been posted. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/115 "2010-11-15T07:03:10Z")
But you see, i did experience an accusation of sexism in post 72. Among my observations was a use of non- gender-neutral terms as directed at me. I think those bear mentioning. Why is Tom that you, upon hearing me mention facing your bias, must deny, trivialize, or one-up it to prove that no bias was experienced, or that somehow the bias was well deserved. Why do you do this? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/116 "2010-11-15T07:45:30Z")
Your irony needs work. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164/117 "2010-11-15T07:53:05Z")
Oh, you think I \*worked \*at that. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-need-to-deny-bias-that-others-have-experienced/560164.md?page=5)