# Why the persistent political apathy over NSA surveillance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 1, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632 "2014-03-01T21:57:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/81 "2014-03-25T03:41:40Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > He probably also does some Googling to figure out who the people are and if they’d have any reason to be talking about such a thing (e.g. they work in the fertilizer business). Methinks the NSA owns a database system which is much more advanced than Google. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > 1. During step #2 or #4, when a human is looking through a transcript, they might find evidence of a crime - unrelated to national security. As such, they could report this to the police, to start an investigation. > 2. During step #2, keywords that are solely in the domain of domestic law, like “cocaine” or “underage” might also be processed, bubbling up information that would only be of any value to the FBI/police. I’m pretty certain that your step #2 is specifically illegal, or at the very best inadmissible in court. Of course, it’s a moot point since this whole PRISM debacle is technically illegal anyway. On the other hand, consider the mountain of data the NSA must pore through on a daily basis. How many Google searches are logged every day? How many people browse Amazon, Best Buy, Home Depot, etc.? Simply crunching the numbers, there’s probably not enough time in the day to seek out & locate genuine terrorists, or similar threats to our nation’s way of life, to bother with other petty, domestic crimes they may happen run across. The NSA may be huge, mysterious and scary, but they are far from omniscient. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/82 "2014-03-25T03:44:46Z")
> [@WheatCat](#): > > Why redact the venerable name of Benjamin Frankin? [Woosh.](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=woosh) > [@Urban Dictionary](#): > > **Woosh** > \*\*Used to denote when a comment has gone over someone’s head. Onomatopoetic to the sound of an object moving past you at an accelerated pace. > > Made even funnier when saying “woosh” also makes no sense to the person that earned the “woosh”, thus making a combo that cannot be countered until combo-broken.\*\* > > Sometimes typed as /woosh in an MMORPG setting, as if something making no sense to someone was an emote of some kind. > > \*tofu: “I’d love to see a snuff film star named Gorey Feldman.” > dahll: “What are you talking about?” > tofu: “Woosh” \* ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/83 "2014-03-25T05:45:05Z")
Woosh is overrated. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/84 "2014-03-25T05:51:32Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Methinks the NSA owns a database system which is much more advanced than Google. I actually sort of doubt it. I’m sure the NSA has the best cryptographers in the country, but I can’t think of any reason for them to dump more money into database systems than any other organization - and all of those are happy to buy stuff off-the-shelf. But Google had a vested information in holding and searching large in the milliseconds. The government probably had lots of data, but you had to submit a request and wait a few days. By now, they’ll have bought or engineered their own Google-like solutions, but they’re probably still behind the real-deal. Though you were probably referring to the types of data they have at their fingertips. As part of the government, they probably have access to a lot of government data - social security numbers, addresses, etc. But LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter are probably better sources for figuring out where you work and who your friends are. If they picked you up out of a chatlog, they’ll have an IP address that they’ll be able to track to your ISP, and your username, “marmaduke1990”. They could request logs from your ISP to see who the IP was assigned to at that date and time - which could take a few days - or just Google “marmaduke1990”. The latter is almost certainly faster. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, consider the mountain of data the NSA must pore through on a daily basis. How many Google searches are logged every day? How many people browse Amazon, Best Buy, Home Depot, etc.? Simply crunching the numbers, there’s probably not enough time in the day to seek out & locate genuine terrorists, or similar threats to our nation’s way of life, to bother with other petty, domestic crimes they may happen run across. The NSA may be huge, mysterious and scary, but they are far from omniscient. That’s why most of the sifting would be handled by computers. Humans would only be involved with the smallest fraction of a single day’s traffic. But I could certainly see them focusing explicitly on terrorist threats simply because you want to tune your scanning algorithms to bubble up just enough material to keep your human operators busy 40 hours a week and no more. Adding more topics, like drug running, murder, child trafficking, etc. just dilutes the time spent looking for terrorists. But, the rate at which computers are getting faster is higher than the rate of population growth. Within 15 years, the government could plausibly start branching out to looking for crime, and within months of that, looking for ways to improve their campaign, shut down their opponents, mislead and spy on the electorate. Highly sophisticated gerrymandering and laser-targeted laws become possible when you can use data mining to find your opponents/allies and their interests. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/85 "2014-03-25T05:51:58Z")
> [@WheatCat](#): > > Try to learn proper quotation formatting, OK? I made a simple coding mistake. What’s your excuse? ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/86 "2014-03-25T05:58:02Z")
> [@WheatCat](#): > > Fine, start putting 'em in every room now, mine first. You know, I used to use that argument as a absurd extrapolation of the mindset that doesn’t think there is anything wrong with unlimited public surveillance. The logical end of “if you aren’t doing anything wrong, you have nothing to be afraid of.” I never thought anyone would ACTUALLY want private surveillance in their own home. You, sir, take the cake. I bow to your dedication. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/87 "2014-03-25T15:11:50Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > It’s intriging for sure. Isn’t it actually a nice companion piece to the effective coup carried outby by Goldmann Sachs and former employees in the wake of the financial crisis; does the public give a shit? > > Of course the purpose of all this surveillance is to preserve the status quo, if not to enhance the status quo. It also doesn’t hurt to ensure the markets don’t have to factor in so much uncertainty. Who stands to gain from the status quo … a fair chunk of those with a voice in the society. > > Maybe it turns out peope never were that bothered by1984, all that stuff is just a little too distant and abstract. > > Cerrtainly people got a whole lot more stirred up about Obamacare. Obamacare benefits guys like me, who don’t have much money and need medical care. That’s an outrage, an offense against humanity, to Republicans. NSA surveillance benefits the wealthy and powerful … which they are for. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/88 "2014-03-25T15:18:38Z")
> [@dofe](#): > > I strongly suspect this is how the majority of Americans see the issue. > > There is really not much that I do online that is of any interest to the NSA. I check my email, read news, engage in online discussions, and occasionally look at photographs of babies that friends or relatives have posted on social networking sites. I have no cite, but that likely describes a large portion of internet users in America. This may disappoint some of the posters in this thread, but the fact is that most people’s lives are of no consequence to national security. To think that the NSA cares enough about your life to track your google searches is fanciful thinking.\* > > \*Edited to add that I don’t believe there has been evidence that the NSA does anything more than metadata tracking You left out looking at porn. ---
**Author:** ![WheatCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@WheatCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WheatCat)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/89 "2014-03-25T15:23:23Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > [Woosh.](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=woosh) The joke is on you, since you should have employed an unambiguous construction such as “anonymous” or “author unknown.” Now chew on this again: We have never faced an enemy committed to the murder of all the inhabitants of entire American cities, and it is reasonable to grant our government more surveillance powers than we would have been willing to grant at any time in the past. A lot more surveillance powers. ---
**Author:** ![WheatCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@WheatCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WheatCat)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/90 "2014-03-25T15:26:30Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > You know, I used to use that argument as a absurd extrapolation of the mindset that doesn’t think there is anything wrong with unlimited public surveillance. The logical end of “if you aren’t doing anything wrong, you have nothing to be afraid of.” I never thought anyone would ACTUALLY want private surveillance in their own home. You, sir, take the cake. I bow to your dedication. I don’t want any surveillance, but I want a successful WMD terrorist operation even less. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/91 "2014-03-25T15:45:22Z")
> [@WheatCat](#): > > I don’t want any surveillance, but I want a successful WMD terrorist operation even less. Nobody wants a successful WMD terrorist operation, but if your fear of WMD terrorist operations leaves you so craven that you will give up every vestige of privacy, as you indicate is the case, then the terrorists have won. ---
**Author:** ![WheatCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@WheatCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WheatCat)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/92 "2014-03-25T15:47:54Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Nobody wants a successful WMD terrorist operation, but if your fear of WMD terrorist operations leaves you so craven that you will give up every vestige of privacy, as you indicate is the case, then the terrorists have won. Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/93 "2014-03-25T15:54:26Z")
[Would I be wrong to assume people have heard this already?](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/25/us/obama-to-seek-nsa-curb-on-call-data.html?hp&_r=0) > [@NY Times](#): > > The Obama administration is preparing to unveil a legislative proposal for a far-reaching overhaul of the National Security Agency’s once-secret bulk phone records program in a way that — if approved by Congress — would end the aspect that has most alarmed privacy advocates since its existence was leaked last year, according to senior administration officials. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/94 "2014-03-25T16:04:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [Would I be wrong to assume people have heard this already?](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/25/us/obama-to-seek-nsa-curb-on-call-data.html?hp&_r=0) Read it this morning. Which means, I guess, that **WheatCat’s** vision of a zero-privacy utopia shan’t come to pass. Oh well, stuff happens. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/95 "2014-03-30T11:14:44Z")
Agrred with WheatCat. Nobody can point to a single instance where an innocent American has actually been harmed by the NSA. The politicians, who are actually read on to the programs rather than just hearing about it in the sensationalist media, understand the value the programs have. Look at it this way: Everyone agrees that covert operations and intelligence collection is often unethical, but has any President EVER run on a promise to ban such actions? Never. Not once. The reason is that while these programs are morally distasteful they are also profoundly useful and help keep Americans safe. Moving away from the domestic issues, the NSA has also stirred up a lot of foreign leaders who have attacked it. This is theatre. Every nation spies on every other nation, and everybody knows it. I recall hearing Brazil’s leader rant against the US… which is fine until you realize that Brazil is a giant playground for terrorist finance and they refuse to pass even the most basic antiterror laws (On the Trail of Terror Finance, Cassara and Jorisch, 2010). Everyone involved knows that foreign protests are just for public propaganda; one nation condemning another nation’s spying… ANY nation… is just rank hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/96 "2014-03-30T11:36:16Z")
Anyone else wondering what the OP has to hide? 😉 No outrage from me because I, like so many others, always thought they were doing it anyway. I’d kind of be disappointed if they weren’t. I sure as hell would be doing it if I were in charge. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/97 "2014-03-30T17:20:20Z")
This just in: [Obama to call for end to N.S.A.’s collection of metadata.](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/25/us/obama-to-seek-nsa-curb-on-call-data.html?_r=0) So, what’s everyone think of this new development? Is this mere political grandstanding, or are the NSA’s salad days truly numbered? ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/98 "2014-03-30T17:24:27Z")
Grandstanding–metadata is unimportant stuff in terms of privacy. Online content, and wiretaps through rubber stamp courts are what we should be concerned with. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/99 "2014-03-30T20:25:41Z")
> [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](#): > > Grandstanding–metadata is unimportant stuff in terms of privacy. Online content, and wiretaps through rubber stamp courts are what we should be concerned with. _Breaking News_: Obama is announcing plans for a new secret FISA court to keep a check on secret FISA rubber-stamping. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632/100 "2014-03-30T23:54:37Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > This just in: [Obama to call for end to N.S.A.’s collection of metadata.](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/25/us/obama-to-seek-nsa-curb-on-call-data.html?_r=0) > > So, what’s everyone think of this new development? Is this mere political grandstanding, or are the NSA’s salad days truly numbered? He’s cutting out the programs that aren’t effective, and promising media outlets to give them good scoops if they make the headlines sound like he’s shutting everything down, when in fact, most of everything is going to still be in business. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-persistent-political-apathy-over-nsa-surveillance/682632.md?page=6)