# Why the South seceded from the Union **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2017, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974 "2017-08-28T23:41:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/81 "2017-09-01T03:05:38Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Of course they did. They attempted to negotiate a deal regarding UNion property but Lincoln rejected diplomacy. Lincoln was supplying a fort which existed to collect taxes. Once you start collecting taxes from foreign governments against their will, they are no longer called taxes, but tribute. If Japan’s government turned against US occupation, they would certainly have a right to demand the US vacate. > > Most people did not believe it was an illegal act. There is no basis for that claim. There was no desire to punish the South until Lincoln deftly outmaneuvered the confederacy at Sumter. > > You can’t start a war in self-defense. Period. Using your logic the US wouldn’t start a war by flying bombers over Moscow if Vladimir squeezed off a shot before they dropped their bombs. Arming a tax collecting fort in a foreign harbor is an aggressive action. > > Everyone understood arming Ft Sumter was an aggressive action. His cabinet argued against it. Even Lincoln admirers brag about how Lincoln deceived the confederates. None of this has any connection to reality. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/82 "2017-09-01T04:21:24Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Of course they did. They attempted to negotiate a deal regarding UNion property but Lincoln rejected diplomacy. Lincoln was supplying a fort which existed to collect taxes. > > Once you start collecting taxes from foreign governments against their will, they are no longer called taxes, but tribute. If Japan’s government turned against US occupation, they would certainly have a right to demand the US vacate. The legal fiction of declaring oneself independent does not make that fiction fact. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Most people did not believe it was an illegal act. There is no basis for that claim. We agree, there is no basis for the claim that most people did not believe it was an illegal act. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > There was no desire to punish the South until Lincoln deftly outmaneuvered the confederacy at Sumter. Have you ever even heard of bleeding Kansas? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You can’t start a war in self-defense. Period. Using your logic the US wouldn’t start a war by flying bombers over Moscow if Vladimir squeezed off a shot before they dropped their bombs. Arming a tax collecting fort in a foreign harbor is an aggressive action. Calling land yours doesn’t make it so. Attacking people in that land doesn’t then make it self defense. I mean, what, was Stalin’s invasion of Poland “self defense” in your book? Or any conquest, really, just up and declare the land is yours and suddenly anyone returning fire against your “rightful occupation” is the _real_ aggressor, right? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Everyone understood arming Ft Sumter was an aggressive action. His cabinet argued against it. Even Lincoln admirers brag about how Lincoln deceived the confederates. Every historical revisionist with a serious hardon for the confederacy, maybe… ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/83 "2017-09-01T08:28:42Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Everyone understood arming Ft Sumter was an aggressive action. His cabinet argued against it. Even Lincoln admirers brag about how Lincoln deceived the confederates. > [@etasyde](#): > > Every historical revisionist with a serious hardon for the confederacy, maybe… Quite the revisionist statement in itself. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/84 "2017-09-01T09:47:28Z")
> [@Hectorik](#): > > The concept of a limited central government was adopted by Switzerland, modelling its organization of power on the United States of America (before the Civil War). We lost that concept here and Switzerland utilized it as an outpost of limited central government in Europe. :dubious: Others here have done yeoman work refuting your unsupported assertions about the CSA, but I don’t think I’ve seen anyone rebut this particular doozy. The Swiss concept of a federation comprised of largely independent cantons actually [predates](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Swiss_Confederacy) Columbus’s expeditions by two centuries. The Founding Fathers indeed paid attention to European models, including Swiss and [Dutch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Republic) examples, in devising the governmental structures of the USA. Not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/85 "2017-09-01T12:13:20Z")
Hectorik: I am curious, plus I think it is directly pertinent to the subject, that you explain one thing in particular: Why exactly and specifically are you trying to rewrite the history of the United States as you are? What is your specific modern day, here and now motivation? You clearly are not “simply trying to correct the record,” since (as all of these particular kinds of revisionists do) you insist on specifically and forcibly IGNORING the most salient and applicable facts (i.e. that all of the seceding states declared that they did so to preserve Slavery). So what do you possibly hope to gain with this? I’ve seen some people who retold the lies you have, who did so because they got excited at the idea that if they fooled enough people into believing it all, that they could stop paying federal taxes; and I’ve seen a few who were upset that some Northerners were self-righteously pretending that the “Yankee” states were all saintly; and I’ve seen plenty of people who played these silly games because they wanted to somehow excuse and encourage a return to white supremacy in the South, by putting the rest of the country through some kind of confusing guilt trip, hoping they would cease enforcing equality for all citizens because they were distracted. But what specifically is your motivation here? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/86 "2017-09-01T12:30:59Z")
Hectorik’s version: the South fired first and started the war… But it was that sneaky Lincoln’s fault because he tricked them. “Lincoln MADE them do it.” To me, the truth looks simpler: the South was SPOILING for a fight. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/87 "2017-09-01T12:36:13Z")
Even Lincoln idolaters wax lyrical about how the Great and Cunning Lincoln outmaneuvered the evil confederates. It is really not a controversial claim. I can see still arguing that the South initiated the conflict, especially after a couple decades of public school, but to argue he did not trick them is a fool’s errand. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/88 "2017-09-01T12:56:28Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Even Lincoln idolaters wax lyrical about how the Great and Cunning Lincoln outmaneuvered the evil confederates. It is really not a controversial claim. I can see still arguing that the South initiated the conflict, especially after a couple decades of public school, but to argue he did not trick them is a fool’s errand. The South did not go to war reluctantly or by accident. They were (and often still are) EAGER for war. That’s why William Tecumseh Sherman was writing desperate letters to Southern friends begging them to reconsider. He saw Southerners all around him chomping at the bit to go to war, and he told them exactly what the result would be. The South wanted a fight. They started one. It didn’t turn out the way they hoped. Southerners SHOULD be saying, “Maybe that was a horrible idea.” Instead, many (like you) are feigning innocence- as if everyone in the South was sitting on the porch sipping mint juleps when suddenly, out of nowhere, the Yankees swept in and destroyed everything for no reason at all. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/89 "2017-09-01T12:57:37Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Even Lincoln idolaters wax lyrical about how the Great and Cunning Lincoln outmaneuvered the evil confederates. It is really not a controversial claim. I can see still arguing that the South initiated the conflict, especially after a couple decades of public school, but to argue he did not trick them is a fool’s errand. Can you support this at all? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/90 "2017-09-01T13:14:37Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Hectorik’s version: the South fired first and started the war… But it was that sneaky Lincoln’s fault because he tricked them. “Lincoln MADE them do it.” New theory: The North originally shot first but George Lucas went back and re-edited the war. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Even Lincoln idolaters wax lyrical about how the Great and Cunning Lincoln outmaneuvered the evil confederates. It is really not a controversial claim. It is a claim I have never heard before, so I too would really like some evidence that 1) it happened and 2) that “Lincoln idolators” have waxed lyrical about this. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/91 "2017-09-01T14:20:35Z")
“You and I both anticipated that the cause of the country would be advanced by making the attempt to provision Ft Sumter, even if it should fail; and it is no small consolation now to feel that our anticipation is justified by the result.” Lincoln to Gustavus Fox That should give you something to chew on. I will try to dig up more time allowing. ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/92 "2017-09-01T15:37:08Z")
I really like the idea that a political party’s name has to reflect that party’s platform. One would assume the Whigs were really into driving (or wigs) and the Tories into banditry. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/93 "2017-09-01T15:51:28Z")
Discussion of the provision of the fort and the potential failure of said provisioning is not maneuvering Confederates into an unprovoked attack. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/94 "2017-09-01T16:20:52Z")
I think Will Farnaby’s theories are preposterous and dishonest. But let’s play along a second. Let’s pretend that the South didn’t want a fight (ha!) and that they were TRICKED by the evil, devious Lincoln into firing shots. Wouldn’t that make Jefferson Davis a moron? Wouldn’t that make him an idiot? Wouldn’t that make him a fool of historic importance? By YOUR reasoning, Lincoln baited the South into a war… and Jeff Davis was dumb enough to fall for it. So… why does the South have statues of this dickhead all over the place? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/95 "2017-09-01T16:22:03Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Discussion of the provision of the fort and the potential failure of said provisioning is not maneuvering Confederates into an unprovoked attack. Clearly he provoked them by not surrendering. Given that Lincoln 1) wasn’t going to shed first blood and 2) wasn’t going to surrender the forts, and given that 3) the forts needed provisioning, what else was he going to do? That’s not “tricking” the Confederacy into attacking. The Confederacy had the same option to withdraw that Lincoln did. Unless someone wants to argue that the Confederates tricked Lincoln into tricking them… ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/96 "2017-09-01T17:09:49Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Let’s pretend that the South didn’t want a fight (ha!) and that they were TRICKED by the evil, devious Lincoln into firing shots. I’m pretty sure the South didn’t want a fight. They just wanted to be independent. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/97 "2017-09-01T17:24:38Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > The South wanted a fight. They started one. It didn’t turn out the way they hoped. Southerners SHOULD be saying, “Maybe that was a horrible idea.” Instead, many (like you) are feigning innocence- as if everyone in the South was sitting on the porch sipping mint juleps when suddenly, out of nowhere, the Yankees swept in and destroyed everything for no reason at all. That actually sounds like exactly what happened, according to the documentary, Gone with the Wind. I do wonder how much of the southern historical revisionism is because of that movie, and people thinking that the movie had any basis or fact to it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/98 "2017-09-01T17:36:52Z")
If anyone ‘tricked’ anyone it was the South. By firing on Sumter, Lincoln reacted by calling for 75,000 volunteers. This action actually led to many states in the south going with secession. Prior to that a lot of the states were very unseen on the secession. without that kind of support the Confederacy would have likely collapsed on itself in a matter of months. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/99 "2017-09-01T17:37:28Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I’m pretty sure the South didn’t want a fight. They just wanted to be independent. Whatever they wanted, they (meaning the relatively small number of rich white Southerners who were making these decisions) chose to arm themselves and attack US soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/100 "2017-09-01T18:04:45Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Lincoln was supplying a fort which existed to collect taxes. Once you start collecting taxes from foreign governments against their will, they are no longer called taxes, but tribute. The claim that Fort Sumter was a fort which “existed to collect taxes” is erroneous, and the only support online I can find for it is in Confederate apologist cites. In reality, Fort Sumter was conceived after the War of 1812 as protection for the harbor. By the time of the Civil War, it was still not completed. In fact, it was only occupied because federal troops had retreated from another, less defensible, fort due to the hostilities of the Confederate locals. > [@](#): > > Everyone understood arming Ft Sumter was an aggressive action. Lincoln was not “arming” Ft. Sumter. He was bringing supplies. He made that explicitly clear before he did it. > [@](#): > > “You and I both anticipated that the cause of the country would be advanced by making the attempt to provision Ft Sumter, even if it should fail; and it is no small consolation now to feel that our anticipation is justified by the result.” > > Lincoln to Gustavus Fox > > That should give you something to chew on. I will try to dig up more time allowing. This requires context (but first, note the use of the word “provisions”; As stated, Lincoln was not arming Ft. Sumter). See, the Confederates had already shot on a ship that had attempted to bring supplies to Ft. Sumter - The [Star of the West](http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/star-of-the-west-leaves-for-fort-sumter); only this had happened in January, 1861, while Buchanan was still President, as Lincoln would not be sworn in until March. So, Lincoln is responding to the fact that a) he has federal troops stranded on a half-built fort and b) a previous President had encountered hostilities when a seemingly peaceful private vessel had attempted to bring them supplies. Thus, Lincoln was facing a bullying, aggressive Confederate government before he had even taken office. Sure, he wanted the authority to preserve the Union; as others have pointed out, secession was an illegal act. But it is a historical fallacy to say that he laid a trap to engender hostilities. The Confederates had already shown a willingness to use arms to prevent U.S. soldiers from being aided. So, Lincoln and his men responded with resolve. There was no subtlety or trickery involved. Meanwhile, it appears that if you dig into the specifics of the famous attack, it occurred after the Union commander had pledged to evacuate, albeit in a few days. From [here](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/fort-sumter-the-civil-war-begins-1018791/): > [@](#): > > In the early hours of April 12, approximately nine hours after the Confederates had first asked Anderson to evacuate Fort Sumter, the envoys were again rowed out to the garrison. They made an offer: if Anderson would state when he and his men intended to quit the fort, the Confederates would hold their fire. Anderson called a council of his officers: How long could they hold out? Five days at most, he was told, which meant three days with virtually no food. Although the men had managed to mount about 45 cannon, in addition to the original 15, not all of those could be trained on Confederate positions. Even so, every man at the table voted to reject immediate surrender to the Confederates. > > Anderson sent back a message to the Confederate authorities, informing them that he would evacuate the fort, but not until noon on the 15th, adding, “I will not in the meantime open my fire upon your forces unless compelled to do so by some hostile act against this fort or the flag of my Government.” > > But the Confederacy would tolerate no further delay. The envoys immediately handed Anderson a statement: “Sir: By authority of Brigadier-General Beauregard, commanding the provisional forces of the Confederate States, we have the honor to notify you that he will open the fire of his batteries on Fort Sumter in one hour from this time.” > > Anderson roused his men, informing them an attack was imminent. At 4:30 a.m., the heavy thud of a mortar broke the stillness. A single shell from Fort Johnson on James Island rose high into the still-starry sky, curved downward and burst directly over Fort Sumter. Confederate batteries on Morris Island opened up, then others from Sullivan’s Island, until Sumter was surrounded by a ring of fire. As geysers of brick and mortar spumed up where balls hit the ramparts, shouts of triumph rang from the rebel emplacements. In Charleston, families by the thousands rushed to rooftops, balconies and down to the waterfront to witness what the Charleston Mercury would describe as a “Splendid Pyrotechnic Exhibition.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974.md?page=6)