# Why the South seceded from the Union **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2017, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974 "2017-08-28T23:41:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 1\ **Showing post:** 136
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974/136 "2017-09-06T14:09:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > While making no claim to have settled this argument, [I addressed the issue in another thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20452206#post20452206), pointing out that beyond Shelby Foote’s assertion, I have not scene any significant evidence that this was true. I wasn’t sure which thread to put this in, but I think it goes better here; however, I’ll start by partly quoting a couple of posts from that other thread: > [@Suddenly these Statues offend people?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/307): > > Before the civil war people referred to “these United States” after the Civil war people referred to “the United States” > [@Suddenly these Statues offend people?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suddenly-these-statues-offend-people/794636/322): > > I see this claim made quite often. > > I have never seen any actual evidence to support the claim. There are documents and speeches in which “these” is used, rather than “the,” but there are plenty of references using “the.” I think y’all have gone down a bit of a blind alley here. IIRC, the claim wasn’t that there’s a distinction between “the United States” and “these United States” (I’m pretty sure I occasionally still hear politicians say “these United States”, purely as a rhetorical flourish). The claim is that Americans shifted from “the United States _are_” before the Civil War, to “the United States _is_” after the war. There does seem to be some validity to that claim. In the Constitution, for example, the plural is used (“Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against _them_, or in adhering to _their_ Enemies…”), which grammatical form is still found in the [U.S. Code](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381), but definitely sounds archaic these days. To semi-randomly pick one of the documents Tom linked to in that other thread, [the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo](https://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=false&doc=26&page=transcript), a careful read still shows that was the case in 1848: “The United States do furthermore discharge the Mexican Republic…”; _NOT_ “The United States _does_…”. (Contrast this with the [Treaty of Peace Between the United States and Spain](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/sp1898.asp) in 1898: “The United States will adjudicate and settle the claims of its citizens”; _NOT_ “the claims of _their_ citizens”. The pre-Civil War Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo by contrast at one point refers to “The United States, exonerating Mexico from all demands on account of the claims of _their_ citizens…”) It’s an interesting linguistic point. I do think some people read _way_ too much into it. I recall a claim right here on the SDMB within the last month that before the Civil War the U.S. was more like “the 1970s European Common Market” rather than a true state, which is not at all tenable. (The 1970s EEC wasn’t going around waging war on and then annexing large chunks of nearby countries; even linguistically, the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, although using plural forms to refer to the United States, also consistently refers to “them” as a singular republic, not as a loose alliance or confederation of republics.) More to the point, whether the term “United States” is regarded as grammatically plural or singular, there was manifestly a strong sense of nationhood and of a national identity as “Americans” _before_ the Civil War; if there hadn’t been, there wouldn’t have been a (long, bloody) Civil War in the first place. Nobody is likely to start a shooting war over Brexit. --- _[View the full topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-south-seceded-from-the-union/794974)._