# Why the thanks for today's returning vets? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 11, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670 "2013-11-11T20:19:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/81 "2013-11-12T20:29:38Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > We are not currently at war with any hostile nation. You cannot possibly believe that. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/82 "2013-11-12T20:36:15Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > You cannot possibly believe that. He does. He’s saying the U.S. is not at war with any governments; just insurgents in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Yemen. **Der Trihs** ’ original claim was that if U.S. soldiers are heroes than so are soldiers of the governments who are fighting U.S. soldiers. Technically there aren’t any. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/83 "2013-11-12T20:52:25Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > We are going to need a definition of “drafted” and “volunteered.” What is your definition and what is the source of your statistics? Page after page of cites all have the same numbers. Most seem to have received from a study done by the VFW which compiled many statistics about the Viet Nam War. During the course of the entire war 648,500 draftees served in the war zone. 2.6 million were stationed in Viet Nam during the conflict. 15,458 draftees died due to hostile action which is 32.% of the total. Now this is for the entire conflict, there were fluctuations year by year. If you can find different statistics feel free. A draftee is someone who was drafted. A volunteer is someone who volunteered. I don’t think it needs to be or can be broken down more than that. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/84 "2013-11-12T22:34:56Z")
I would probably tend more in the direction of sorry rather than thanks, but I do appreciate what they do for us. Consider the following analogy, your a boss and you suddenly find that you have lost a very important report. Assuming your office assistant misfiled it you have her come in on a Saturday and search all of your files, after spending several hours doing this you notice it was on your desk under some papers the whole time. In spite of the fact that the assistant’s work was largely useless I would certainly hope that you would thank her for coming in on her day off. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/85 "2013-11-12T22:56:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **Der Trihs** ’ original claim was that if U.S. soldiers are heroes than so are soldiers of the governments who are fighting U.S. soldiers. Technically there aren’t any. I didn’t say anything about _governments;_ just citizens fighting for their nation. A resistance fighter is just as patriotic and fighting just as hard for his homeland as any soldier who has a uniform. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > And it may not be terribly risky work, but I appreciate the hell out of the guys that keep our sewers flowing and our garbage picked up. Actually as I recall garbage collection is fairly hazardous work. All sorts of nasty things get thrown into the garbage without any thought of safety. Plus you are around heavy objects, rotting material and heavy machinery; lots of things can go wrong. > [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > I’m always struck by folks who say stuff like, “10 years in Afghanistan / Iraq! What a waste of lives and money! Why we could have paid $X to every man, woman & child instead! We lost more soldiers in EACH of those wars than we lost civilians on 9/11–_ **Those wars were insane wastes!** _” Insane. So ALL of our political leaders we crazy? All in a conspiracy of ignorance? Or passively letting the lunatics have their way. Or they just didn’t care. > [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > They weren’t keeping track of the expenses and wrecked lives on both ends of the guns? Of course not; they were trying quite hard not to. The last thing anyone in power wants is an accurate count of the costs of a disaster they caused. > [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > It’s a tired and trite expression, but doesn’t it make more sense to say, “You don’t know what DIDN’T happen as a result of our actions.” From what little I saw in 4 years, I can honestly say CNN\<----\>Fox probably never told us what was really going on. :rolleyes: Oh please, the pro-war people pushed that line for years. “Bush has secret information you don’t have! It’ll turn out to be justified in the end!” No, he didn’t; and no, it wasn’t. The conquest of Iraq never had anything at all with defending America, and did nothing but harm to America. Even now, all you can do to try to defend the war is handwave about some totally baseless, totally undefined “what if”. You could defend attacking _anyone_ with an argument that vague; perhaps we should conquer Canada next? Who knows what will happen if we don’t conquer them before…\*it’s too late!! \* > [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > No, but the fact that many of them are born in Chechnya who only came to Iraq to destroy it certainly means they are not citizens of Iraq. Ah, the old “foreign fighters” line. No, most were Iraqis. > [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > That’s not the only country they came from, either. > When I fought alongside the Iraqi Army, killing enemy who flocked to that country in order to attack its citizens and infrastructure, we were not at war with Iraq. We are allies. We attacked the citizens and infrastructure of Iraq. And much of the continuing attacks on Iraq’s infrastructure was by people trying to hamper us from stealing their oil by destroying pipelines and the like. And we were an _occupying army,_ not their allies. We conquered them, and then we gave up because they refused to just lie down and take it like we’d convinced ourselves they would. We were and are their enemies. > [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > That isn’t relevant. My country feels that it is in their best interests to do so. That’s all that matters. That’s what selfless service is all about. It’s not about “why”. Again; “I was just following orders” is no excuse. And as **Peter Morris** said; you can’t simultaneously argue that “why” doesn’t matter and that soldiers are fighting for a noble cause. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/86 "2013-11-12T23:16:15Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > But not fighting against the nations themselves. That’s not semantics, that’s a huge distinction. I wonder if the people of those countries, seeing our drones killing their fellow countrymen, see such a distinction. I should think not. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/87 "2013-11-12T23:35:17Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I wonder if the people of those countries, seeing our drones killing their fellow countrymen, see such a distinction. > > I should think not. Pfft that’s not the problem with bear\_nenno’s argument. When you invade a country and install a new regime but are still fighting ‘insurgents’ it is indeed a game of semantics. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/88 "2013-11-12T23:40:35Z")
I for one would like to thank the drones for their service. That makes me sad. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/89 "2013-11-12T23:50:11Z")
> [@CC](#): > > \ I think many of them are there because they want to be seen as “fighting men and women” and potential heroes. I think many of them are there because the economy sucks and finanical aid for education beyond high school is hard to get (or at least that has been what I have seen with all of my the friends of my nephews who have enlisted.) The fact that they are willing to do hard and dangerous work for a chance at a better future is a decision worthy of respect. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/90 "2013-11-13T00:08:16Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > You must show that your own participation did in fact secure the American way of life. I’ve already explained why this is not the case. A soldier’s service cannot and should not be measured on an individual level based on the missions or operations he/she served in. If that were the case, then soldiers serving in peace time are not serving their country. That is obviously not the case. Unless you want to argue that the existance of a military serves no purpose at all. Do you not realize that the very existance of a powerful standing Army gives the United States a certain amount of geo-political leverage? The interests of the United States are being served by its military. The military does not exist without Soldiers. Soldiers are collectively securing the prosperity and strength of the nation, regardless of their measured, specific individual contribution. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/91 "2013-11-13T00:14:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Again; “I was just following orders” is no excuse. Of course not. But we haven’t established that there is any need for an excuse or apology. I certainly don’t feel any need for either. > [@](#): > > And as **Peter Morris** said; you can’t simultaneously argue that “why” doesn’t matter and that soldiers are fighting for a noble cause. You’re just never going to get it, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/92 "2013-11-13T00:17:11Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Pfft that’s not the problem with bear\_nenno’s argument. When you invade a country and install a new regime but are still fighting ‘insurgents’ it is indeed a game of semantics. Even when the insurgents come from other countries and not actually the country you’re in? Why are we putting insurgents in quotes? Many of the insurgents have come from other countries. Are we just going to conveniently dismiss that so we can pretend it’s all citizens of that nation trying to defend their country against America? They are fighting for a cause, but secular nationalism or patriotism isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/93 "2013-11-13T00:18:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We attacked the citizens and infrastructure of Iraq. And much of the continuing attacks on Iraq’s infrastructure was by people trying to hamper us from stealing their oil by destroying pipelines and the like. Where did all that oil go? I mean, we obviously stole all the oil, right? Where the hell is it? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/94 "2013-11-13T00:21:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And we were an _occupying army,_ not their allies. We conquered them, and then we gave up because they refused to just lie down and take it like we’d convinced ourselves they would. We were and are their enemies. So it simply isn’t possible to become allies with a nation that was occupied? So we are still enemies with Japan and Germany, then. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/95 "2013-11-13T00:22:04Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > A soldier’s service cannot and should not be measured on an individual level based on the missions or operations he/she served in. But his own personal sense of ethics can and should be. It comes down to whether that soldier kills people because it really is necessary to protect his country from harm, or if killing people is a job that he does, without caring about the morality of it. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/96 "2013-11-13T00:26:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Again; “I was just following orders” is no excuse. And as **Peter Morris** said; you can’t simultaneously argue that “why” doesn’t matter and that soldiers are fighting for a noble cause. My argument was not that the specific operation was noble, just that the Soldiers’ service was noble. They are doing what the country decided was in its best interest. The “just following orders” thing is a strawman. Soldiers weren’t ordered to commit genocide, they were sent to war. But of course, you’re just going to see any war as some evil illegal action, so you will never agree that a soldier does anything praise worthy. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/97 "2013-11-13T00:30:21Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > But his own personal sense of ethics can and should be. It comes down to whether that soldier kills people because it really is necessary to protect his country from harm, or if killing people is a job that he does, without caring about the morality of it. It’s not that I don’t care about the morality. It’s just that I don’t see it as immoral. I don’t think someone needs to be presently aiming at the President’s head for them to be a morally acceptable target. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/98 "2013-11-13T01:27:33Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Even when the insurgents come from other countries and not actually the country you’re in? Why are we putting insurgents in quotes? Many of the insurgents have come from other countries. Are we just going to conveniently dismiss that so we can pretend it’s all citizens of that nation trying to defend their country against America? They are fighting for a cause, but secular nationalism or patriotism isn’t one of them. I put it in quotes because you know as well as I that not all insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan are foreigners. And just because you put nation above tribe or religion doesn’t make patriotism objectively more valid. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/99 "2013-11-13T01:40:48Z")
Hey Bear - thank you for your service. ---
**Author:** ![stoplight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@stoplight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stoplight)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670/100 "2013-11-13T02:17:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > He does. He’s saying the U.S. is not at war with any governments; just insurgents in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Yemen. **Der Trihs** ’ original claim was that if U.S. soldiers are heroes than so are soldiers of the > governments who are fighting U.S. soldiers. Technically there aren’t any. Oh I think his claim goes a bit deeper then that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-thanks-for-todays-returning-vets/673670.md?page=6)