# Why the US opposition to the idea of secession? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 27, 2013, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509 "2013-02-27T11:45:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/21 "2013-02-27T15:21:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > 1. What role did the United States have in the breakup of India? > > 2. Have you ever BEEN to the United States? It doesn’t sound like it. (1) Yeah, I think **elbows** needs to take the matter of India/Pakistan up with **Capt. Ridley**. The Brits just love their partitions… (2) Really. As has been pointed out in this thread & the last hundred on the topic, the division is urban versus rural. [Battleground Texas](http://www.battlegroundtexas.com/content/home) is a new effort to retake our state from the forces of repression; it will happen with changing demographics but we get tired of waiting. Besides, the secession forces in Texas are a tiny, tiny nutcase minority. Even Governor Ricky mentioned secession only when Kay Bailey Hutchison (The Last Sane Texas Republican) considering becoming governor; he was posturing to his base & changed his tune in time for that abortive try at the Presidency… ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/22 "2013-02-27T15:29:28Z")
Allowing states to just go their own way also ignores a monetary reality. For instance, I live in Ohio. If Texas leaves the Union, then I expect Texas to pay reparations for all of the Federal benefits, ie infrastructure and military, Texas has received from the Union. I’m not just going to allow Texas to take the Johnson Space Center and the Corpus Christi Naval Base for free. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/23 "2013-02-27T15:30:28Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Let the south secede already. They can have their guns, and draconian abortion laws, they can put prayer back in school and nativity scenes back in the town hall, teach creationism instead of science. They can pursue their "everyone prospers when rich, white guys get richer’ strategy, and pour all their money into defence, build a big ass border fence, whatever turns their cranks, without being chastised my others. And the 40% of the people in the south who find this loathsome, who are citizens of the US, who voted for the current president, whose right to citizenship is this country is their most basic right, who the government has obligation to defend - we would throw them to those wolves why? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/24 "2013-02-27T15:36:29Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The problem is that there aren’t separate “nations” in the United States. To the extent that there are some people who say they want to accede its not because they are seeking self determination for an ethnicity or nation. It’s because they want to be free to oppress the people in their immediate vicinity. Sounds exactly how the US was formed in the first place, no? I think the answer of “because of the Civil War” misses the point. If states were allowed to seceded, there would be need for such a war. But the process would have be defined and inserted into the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/25 "2013-02-27T15:47:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > How is this unique to the U.S.? I assure you, if Normandy tired to secede from France, Paris would respond with more than just a strongly-worded letter. Very few nations in history have willingly relinquished sovereignty; unwillingness to relinquish sovereignty is what makes them nations. Why? If Scotland votes to secede then they’ll be granted independence. Nobody seriously doubts otherwise. Similarly, the whole of Europe collectively laughed when some Spanish general threatened to march into Catalonia should they vote to secede. Secessionist parties have spent the best part of the last decade in coalition government in Italy. Slovakia and the Czech Republic parted ways quite peacefully twenty years ago. I find it very hard to imagine the French marching troops into [any of the regions with an active separatist movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe#France) should they vote to leave. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/26 "2013-02-27T15:50:57Z")
Those regions are fundamentally different from U.S. states. They are actually ethnic groups or nations. There are zero ethnic groups or nations seeking to secede from the United States. To the extent that there are _any_ groups seeking secession, they are groups of individual radical conservatives with no nationality to speak of other than “American” and with no correlation to state boundaries. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/27 "2013-02-27T15:51:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Those regions are fundamentally different from U.S. states. They are actually ethnic groups or nations. There are zero ethnic groups or nations seeking to secede from the United States. To the extent that there are _any_ groups seeking secession, they are groups of individual radical conservatives with no nationality to speak of other than “American” and with no correlation to state boundaries. So what? This country was, supposedly, founded on ideas, not on ethnicity. Frankly, I find the idea that a country has to be made up of a certain ethnic group to be rather racist. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/28 "2013-02-27T16:00:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So what? This country was, supposedly, founded on ideas, not on ethnicity. > > Frankly, I find the idea that a country has to be made up of a certain ethnic group to be rather racist. I really have no idea what position you are arguing for. 1. The right of _nations_ to seek self-determination, as brought up in this thread, is a right of “nations,” which is an explicitly ethnic term. A group of people who happen to sign on to a particular political platform is not a nation. A nation is a group of people with a common cultural background, history, and ancestry (that is, ethnicity), and (probably) some history – even if distant – of some kind of independent statehood. 2. One of the ideas this country was founded on is democracy. Allowing any partisan faction to simply opt out of a democratic state in order to avoid the consequences of democratic decision-making would fundamentally undermine democracy. 3. Secession requires not only a body of people who want to secede, but also some kind of defined territory that such people lay a claim to. Anyone who thinks that the political disagreements in the United States are aligned with state borders fundamentally misunderstands the political situation in the United States. 4. Economically and politically, allowing secession would be a disaster to everyone. 5. As has been stated before, no “state” actually wants to secede. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/29 "2013-02-27T16:04:33Z")
It’s not that only ethnic groups seek to be independent nations, it’s that only those with an identity that supersedes their national affiliation do. That needn’t be a matter of ethnicity, it could be religion, culture, ideology, anything discrete. > [@Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party](#): > > If Scotland votes to secede then they’ll be granted independence. Nobody seriously doubts otherwise. Exactly, Scots have an identity as Scots that, for some, trumps their identity as Brits. This is not the case for Americans, not anymore, or at least for more than a tiny minority. Hence, no secession in the foreseeable future. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/30 "2013-02-27T16:09:08Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > And the 40% of the people in the south who find this loathsome, who are citizens of the US, who voted for the current president, whose right to citizenship is this country is their most basic right, who the government has obligation to defend - we would throw them to those wolves why? Exactly. We strip people of their U.S. citizenship for treason. Why should I be involuntarily stripped of mine for nothing I’ve done and no view that I hold? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/31 "2013-02-27T16:35:10Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > Exactly. We strip people of their U.S. citizenship for treason. Why should I be involuntarily stripped of mine for nothing I’ve done and no view that I hold? Can’t you become an expatriate? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/32 "2013-02-27T16:36:42Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > 1. Secession requires not only a body of people who want to secede, but also some kind of defined territory that such people lay a claim to. Anyone who thinks that the political disagreements in the United States are aligned with state borders fundamentally misunderstands the political situation in the United States. This a thousand times. Of course, we did have such fairly well defined bodies of people with explicit borders before the Civil War. But that was also before any nation thought “self-determination” was any kind of excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/33 "2013-02-27T16:47:51Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > And the 40% of the people in the south who find this loathsome, who are citizens of the US, who voted for the current president, whose right to citizenship is this country is their most basic right, who the government has obligation to defend - we would throw them to those wolves why? Is this the part of the concept that engenders the hostility? I understand the dismissiveness when it comes to this subject but I’ve never understood the anger it generated in its opponents. It seems like an interesting idea to banter around. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/34 "2013-02-27T16:49:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Can’t you become an expatriate? > > Regards, > Shodan I think “displaced person” would be more accurate, as it was involuntary. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/35 "2013-02-27T16:50:44Z")
Well, tell you what. Once a State has 51% of it’s citizens ask to leave then Congress should consider it. But I am not sure if any State even has 1% so far, certainly not 10%. So, _no State wants to leave the Union_, just a few nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/36 "2013-02-27T16:54:13Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > Is this the part of the concept that engenders the hostility? I understand the dismissiveness when it comes to this subject but I’ve never understood the anger it generated in its opponents. It seems like an interesting idea to banter around. I can’t speak for others, but the offensive part of the concept to me is that it’s contemptuous of democracy. Part of democracy is abiding by laws you don’t like passed by a government you don’t like. Sometimes you’ll be in favor of the current elected officials, sometimes not. Part of your duty as a citizen is to suck it up when you don’t feel represented, so long as the representation is fair and Constitutional. Quitting the whole process when you don’t get your way means that democracy cannot work, the body politic will just continue to splinter and fragment once secession is a legitimate alternative to real political action. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/37 "2013-02-27T17:01:42Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Why? If Scotland votes to secede then they’ll be granted independence. What if London did? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/38 "2013-02-27T17:11:29Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Why? If Scotland votes to secede then they’ll be granted independence. > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > What if London did? And then what if Chelsea, Kensington, Belgravia, and Knightsbridge wanted to secede from both? Or, rather, 51 percent of the population therein wanted to? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/39 "2013-02-27T17:13:35Z")
> [@Tom Tildrum](#): > > What if London did? I don’t see how it’s any different. Of course, London would never leave as suddenly all those national chains and businesses with their HQs in London, generating massive tax receipts that Londoners like to pretend are their own, would suddenly need to find a new city within the rUK to report their profits in 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509/40 "2013-02-27T17:18:25Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And then what if Chelsea, Kensington, Belgravia, and Knightsbridge wanted to secede from both? Or, rather, 51 percent of the population therein wanted to? What of it? People keep asking this question. Am I supposed to be enraged at the thought? I certainly think it would be a stupid move, what with there seemingly being a minimum size for a state to make a go of it alone, but it really doesn’t engender the sort of anger that it seems to in many Americans. I certainly don’t think it’s treasonous to broach the subject, or even petition government for it. If a majority want it, what’s the point in resisting it? You claim it undermines democracy — so does civil discontent if a majority of people want to leave but are prevented from doing so! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-the-us-opposition-to-the-idea-of-secession/651509.md?page=3)