# Why Turkey should join the European Union **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2002, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723 "2002-12-14T12:39:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/1 "2002-12-14T12:39:37Z")
Turkey Should Join the union for these reasons: \*It is the most progressive Muslim state I know \*It has the been a great ally of Europe and the free world for 50-60 years. \*It is beginning to have make significant changes to their threatment of the Kurds. \*It is a good treatment for Islamism in general. What are good reasons that you think are why Turkey should join the EU. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/2 "2002-12-14T12:58:14Z")
One have the conditions of Turkey’s membership has always been a dramtic clean up on their human rights record. This [isn’t anywhere yet good enough.](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/webeurcountries/TURKEY?OpenDocument) As long as they have a justice system that tolerates the use of torture they have absolutely no place in the EU and no chance complying with European human rights laws. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/3 "2002-12-14T13:42:21Z")
They’ve been clamping down on the use of torture ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/4 "2002-12-14T13:54:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ryan\_Liam \* > \*\*Turkey Should Join the union for these reasons: > > \*It is the most progressive Muslim state I know > > \*It has the been a great ally of Europe and the free world for 50-60 years. > > \*It is beginning to have make significant changes to their threatment of the Kurds. > > _It is a good treatment for Islamism in general._\* None of these _are_ good reasons for Turkey to join the EU, **Ryan**. Let’s take them one at a time: \*_It is the most progressive Muslim state I know_ Turkey isn’t a Muslim state, it’s a secular republic with a majority Muslim population. In any case, that fact that you can’t think of a more progressive Muslim state isn’t a reason why it should join the EU - there’s no connection whatsoever. \*_It has the been a great ally of Europe and the free world for 50-60 years._ So have lots of countries. You could use a similar argument to say that Canada should join the EU. \*_It is beginning to have make significant changes to their threatment of the Kurds._ Good news of course, but again why is that a reason for it to join the EU? \*_It is a good treatment for Islamism in general._ Setting aside that you haven’t phrased it very well, this is the least bad reason in your list. But policy on expansion of the EU cannot be driven by an attempt to convince Islam that the present military situation isn’t an attack on that religion. One of the many objections raised during the Copenhagen summit is that a large influx of Turkish migrants to other parts of the EU might _increase_ ethnic and religious tensions, which would have a destructive effect rather than a constructive one. The present government of Turkey has been in power for less than two months. It’s not rational to take it for granted that they will keep all or any of their promises regarding human rights reforms or economic changes. It certainly is right to tell Turkey that its application will be treated fairly if and when it meets the same qualification criteria as any other applicant country. In the meantime they’re been told that the situation will be monitored between now and 2004 and another decision made then. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/5 "2002-12-14T13:57:19Z")
They need to clamp it down to zero. Other problematic issues include the status of Cyprus (the northern part of which has been occupied by Turkey since 1974), and the refusal of Turkey to acknowledge the genocide of the Armenian people in 1915. Personally, I favour Turkey’s inclusion, but they have to get their house in order first. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/6 "2002-12-14T13:58:02Z")
Sorry, I have no additional good reasons for Turkey to join the EU. Do the people of Turkey really want to join the EU? Do the current EU member states really feel that adding Turkey’s economy will strengthen the EU? > [@](#): > > \*It is the most progressive Muslim state I know Turkey is a secular, not muslim, state in terms of political system. > [@](#): > > \*It has the been a great ally of Europe and the free world for 50-60 years. If we are talking military alliances, such already exists, through NATO. > [@](#): > > \*It is beginning to have make significant changes to their threatment of the Kurds. Got a cite for that? > [@](#): > > \*It is a good treatment for Islamism in general. I have no idea what this statement means. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/7 "2002-12-14T14:01:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El\_Kabong \* > **Do the current EU member states really feel that adding Turkey’s economy will strengthen the EU?** Inclusion will certainly weaken the economy in the short term - but this isn’t necessarily a reason not to include them in the long term. > [@](#): > > \*\*I have no idea what this statement means. \*\* I think he’s referring to the recent election in which an Islamist government was returned - to show that the West can actually live with some Islamism. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/8 "2002-12-14T14:02:29Z")
\>\> It is beginning to have make significant changes to their threatment of the Kurds. That’s like saying a man is a good man because he beats his wife less than he used to. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/9 "2002-12-14T14:02:47Z")
A healthy economic situation in Turkey will play down religious extremism and promote stability the EU can help on this front. As for the Canadian argument, I’am applying this to the fact some people regard Turkey as not part of Europe, when it’s cultural impact has been enoumous and shaped parts of European culture as well. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/10 "2002-12-14T14:16:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ryan\_Liam \* > \*\*As for the Canadian argument, I’am applying this to the fact some people regard Turkey as not part of Europe, when it’s cultural impact has been enoumous and shaped parts of European culture as well. \*\* You’re shifting the goalposts now. You said that the fact that Turkey has been an ally of the west for a long time is a reason why it should be admitted to the EU. It isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/11 "2002-12-14T14:24:46Z")
Perhaps you’re getting mixed up between “reasons why Turkey _should be_ admitted to the EU” and “objections to reasons why Turkey _shouldn’t_ be admitted to the EU”? They’re not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Rider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dc4da7/32.png) [@Rider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rider)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/12 "2002-12-14T14:30:43Z")
The EU has to stop somewhere, and I think the Bosphorus is as good a place as any. Give the Turks observer status, invite them over for tea and let them watch a bit of TV, but no more. The Golden Horn has always been the traditional cutting of point for Europe and Asia, and the capital of Turkey lies well behind that divide. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/13 "2002-12-14T14:38:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El\_Kabong \* > **Do the people of Turkey really want to join the EU? Do the current EU member states really feel that adding Turkey’s economy will strengthen the EU?** Turkey first applied for EU\* membership in 1959, but the application hasn’t been accepted and the EU has given Turkey a list of reforms to carry out before it can be admitted. During that time there are several reasons why these reforms have not been made (_coups d’etat_, economic collapse etc.). Most of the progress made has been very recent. Some of the current EU members are opposed to admitting Turkey, others are in favour, but even those that are in favour have a variety of reasons for their position - they don’t necessarily think it will strengthen the EU economically. Some of those opposed believe it will weaken the economy overall. \*Actually membership of its predecessor organisation, but it amounts to the same thing ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/14 "2002-12-14T14:39:12Z")
Ok then, your arguments have basis for this to happen, but tell me what the advantages be in letting Turkey join the EU. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/15 "2002-12-14T14:41:45Z")
I say take mexico in the EU and let Turkey join the USA. Makes sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Rider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dc4da7/32.png) [@Rider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rider)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/16 "2002-12-14T14:44:14Z")
Honestly, I can’t see any advantages in letting Turkey join the EU, other than that a few European backpackers will be able to go and get casual work there after Turkey has been a member for seven years. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/17 "2002-12-14T14:46:23Z")
Less restrictions on movement of labour would be beneficial to the economies of Europe??? ---
**Author:** ![Rider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dc4da7/32.png) [@Rider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rider)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/18 "2002-12-14T14:52:03Z")
Not if Europe was swamped by low-pay-accepting Turkish citizens. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/19 "2002-12-14T14:54:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ryan\_Liam \* > \*\*Less restrictions on movement of labour would be beneficial to the economies of Europe??? \*\* That’s nothing to do with admitting Turkey. The current EU rules allow full freedom of labour for citizens of member countries (you can choose to live/study/work in Manchester, Milan or Madrid as though they were all part of the same country). I did hear an economic commentator claiming that some of the member countries have demographic problems that can best be alieviated by economic migration from other member countries. By that he meant that because not enough children are being born here, in coming years there won’t be enough people in the UK to do all the work we need done. That work should be done by Turks instead (in his opinion). ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723/20 "2002-12-14T15:09:37Z")
Well why not let populations in Europe move wherever they want to? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-turkey-should-join-the-european-union/142723.md?page=2)