# Why two battles of Bull Run? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 28, 2018, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-two-battles-of-bull-run/818720 "2018-07-28T04:56:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-two-battles-of-bull-run/818720/41 "2018-07-29T22:26:58Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Wasn’t the idea that the Southern farm boys thought towns and manmade structures were more notable and named battles for them, while natural features made more of an impression on the Northern city slickers? According to the [US Census Bureau](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_in_the_United_States#Historical_statistics), the population of the north-east US in 1860 was 35.7% urban, 64.3% rural; Midwest was 13.9% urban, 86.1% rural. So, I wouldn’t have thought that the Union Army was composed entirely of city slickers. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-two-battles-of-bull-run/818720/42 "2018-07-29T23:29:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The Manassas Battlefield Visitor’s Center has great visual aids for the battle, including a wall-sized map with lighted pinpoints that reflect how the various forces moved positions as the battle progressed. Yes, small but great museum. It also makes sound effects to accompany the light dots on the wall/map. And then you can walk out into the nearby field to see cannons and the widow’s house. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-two-battles-of-bull-run/818720/43 "2018-07-30T04:22:19Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > You also get to see Stonewall Jackson’s statue! Not many people know that Ahnuld was the model for both the general and the horse: [http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7154/6507393633\_d6623da480\_z.jpg](http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7154/6507393633_d6623da480_z.jpg) My, my, my. He looks like he belongs in the Marvel Cinematic Universe or whatever it’s called Anabolic steroids or gamma rays? Or maybe Earth’s yellow sun! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-two-battles-of-bull-run/818720/44 "2018-07-30T14:38:58Z")
Stonewall was the Chuck Norris of his day. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-two-battles-of-bull-run/818720/45 "2018-07-30T15:09:09Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Wasn’t the idea that the Southern farm boys thought towns and manmade structures were more notable and named battles for them, while natural features made more of an impression on the Northern city slickers? The Union liked to name things after rivers. The Army of the Potomac, the Cumberland, the James, the Tennessee, the Gulf, the Ohio, the Missippi. While Confederates liked to name things after areas such as the Army of Northern Virginia, of Tennesse, Trans-Valley, Kentucky. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-two-battles-of-bull-run/818720/46 "2018-07-30T17:28:28Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Wait! Bull Run is a river?!? Yeah, “run” is frequently in the names of small rivers. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > What makes something a good battlefield to see? I’ve never been to one. > [@Dobbs](#): > > Some things to consider - > Historical significance > Preservation > Ease of access (both getting to the field and moving about the field) > Digestability (ease of understanding the battle) > > Manassas has all of those. It was the first real set piece battle of the war (well, First Manassas, anyway). The field very much looks the same as it did back in the day. It’s located just off I-66, and there are several ‘interpretive’ trails, along with a fine visitor center. The events are easy to understand, especially for a first time battlefield visitor. ‘The north attacked from over there, came over this hill, and were turned back by guys in a line here. It was all over in a day.’ > > The last probably the most important for a first time visitor. Gettysburg was 3 days, and covered fields north and south of the town, as well as fighting in the town - there’s a lot to cover. Antetiam was 1 day, but there were separate areas that were significant, and it’s almost 3 different fields. Petersburg covers miles - you have to drive 10 or 20 miles to see all of it. > > I live near Manassas, and used to live in Gettysburg. I’ve stomped about all the fields between Petersburg and Gettysburg and west to WV. Manassas is a good first choice. At the risk of name-dropping as humorously derided elsewhere in this thread, historian Shelby Foote once was asked what battle he’d like to witness if he could go back in time and his answer was surprisingly practical: one where you could get a good view of the goings-on. The Wilderness, for example, was fought in crowded thickets and tangled brush and nobody could see much while it was happening. Foote recommended battlefields with wide open vistas. The Second battle of Bull Run / Manassas was conceived by Lee when he learned that Pope had been put in charge of the Union Army of the Potomac. Lee realized that a smaller part of the Union army was coming down to reinforce the larger part, and in traditional military thinking, decided to try and smash the smaller part before they were united. Also, Lee didn’t like John Pope --and he was not alone. Pope was a known blowhard and posturer (he famously bylinied his dispatches not with his camp’s location but with the grandiose “Headquarters in the saddle,” leading the troops to joke that he had his headquarters where he should have had his hindquarters), and a cabinet secretary told Lincoln “All the Popes are liars,” but Lincoln pointed out that a man could be a liar and a good general, and he was sick of McClellan’s perceived inaction. The method was to send Jackson into the Union rear to bait Pope and fix his attention. Pope indeed took the bait, focusing on Jackson and eventually becoming convinced he had pinned Jackson down in a railroad cut (which the Confederates were using as an impromptu trench). Pope failed to pay attention to rumors of Confederate troops gathering on his flank, and Lee and Longstreet hit his troops in the flank during a frontal attack on the railroad cut and routed the Union boys. In Pope’s defense, McClellan and in particular one of his cronies, Porter, were very lackadaisical in sending troops to support their rival. Also, after the war, Pope would go on to a record of urging the government to adopt more progressive and humanitarian policies toward Native Americans. Nevertheless, the North took a beating at Second Bull Run / Manassas, losing twice as many men despite being numerically stronger. The historian of II Corps (a Union unit, so this is the analysis of someone from his own side!) wrote that John Pope: > [@](#): > > …had been kicked, cuffed. hustled about, knocked down. run over. and trodden upon as rarely happens in the history of war. His communications had been cut; his headquarters pillaged; a corps had marched into his rear. and had encamped at its ease upon the railroad by which he received his supplies; he had been beaten or foiled in every attempt he had made to ‘bag’ those defiant intruders; and, in the end, he was glad to find a refuge in the entrenchments of Washington. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-two-battles-of-bull-run/818720/47 "2018-07-30T20:40:11Z")
> [@Dobbs](#): > > The Union named the battles after the local body of water, the CS named them after the local town. This is not true. What **is** true is that the newspaper writers of the North were much more likely to use geographical references that included things like mountains and waterways to name battles than newspaper writers in the South. Some other examples have already been given. But many battles were consistently named by papers in both regions with identical monikers. The Union did over time tend to adopt a geographical feature method for naming its armies. When McDowell headed off to Bull Run in 1861, he was leading the Army of Northeastern Virginia. That eventually morphed into the Army of the Potomac. Part of this has to do with the Army’s breakdown of command; McDowell was the head of the Department of Northeast Virginia; hence the name of his army. When McClellan arrived after Bull Run to run things, he was made head of the Division of the Potomac, which included the aforementioned Department of Northeast Virginia, as well as the Department of Washington; the Department of the Shenandoah was added as well. McClellan unified the command structure, creating the Army of the Potomac, with him at its head. Similarly, the Army of the Cumberland started out as the Army of the Ohio. The name change occurred when the Department of the Ohio was merged into the Department of the Cumberland. In both cases, of course, rivers were being used as the naming sources: the Ohio River and the Cumberland River. One can, I suppose, make an argument that the Union’s nomenclature involving rivers showed a glimpse of one reason they won the war: the understanding that control of waterways was vital to war on a grand geographical scale. But, if that were really true, then whoever named their armies after the important railways would have been triumphant. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-two-battles-of-bull-run/818720/48 "2018-07-30T20:51:09Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Yeah, “run” is frequently in the names of small rivers. Limited primarily to the central-eastern US, though examples do exist elsewhere (I think I’ve seen some small streams in Colorado called “\_\_\_\_\_\_ Run”). ---
**Author:** ![misling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ab097/32.png) [@misling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misling)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-two-battles-of-bull-run/818720/49 "2018-07-30T21:24:01Z")
There are lots of good hiking trails around Manassas battefield- I’ve walked all of them. There is a main trail for each battle and they are well marked and have signs at key points where various parts of the battle happened - you can basically follow the course of the battle. The signs also have excerpts from diaries and letters of soldiers who were there. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-two-battles-of-bull-run/818720/50 "2018-07-31T17:16:25Z")
Probably the best-known letter associated with First Bull Run: [http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/civil-war/war/historical-documents/sullivan-ballou-letter/](http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/civil-war/war/historical-documents/sullivan-ballou-letter/) ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-two-battles-of-bull-run/818720/51 "2018-07-31T17:18:55Z")
> [@misling](#): > > There are lots of good hiking trails around Manassas battefield- I’ve walked all of them. There is a main trail for each battle and they are well marked and have signs at key points where various parts of the battle happened - you can basically follow the course of the battle. The signs also have excerpts from diaries and letters of soldiers who were there. I’ve been there with three different dog-walking groups, hiking with the canines. We are respectful of the hallowed ground, and the dogs would have loved the soldiers of both sides equally. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-two-battles-of-bull-run/818720.md?page=2)