# Why vote? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2000, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008 "2000-04-19T02:07:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Morgan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Morgan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/1 "2000-04-19T02:07:00Z")
With the U.S. presidential race looming in the near future, can someone give me a compelling reason to vote? I just can’t justify wasting my time to go to the ballot box. The simple fact is my vote doesn’t matter. With 200,000,000 eligible voters in the country, the decision will not turn on a single vote. I’ll bet that there has never been a presidential election where an Electoral College vote was decided by less than a 10,000 vote margin. Why waste my time? Let me quickly try to refute some reasons that that people may come up with: 1. It’s your duty as a citizen. Why? It is my duty as a citizen to obey the law. That is pretty much where my duties as a citizen end. If I choose to be a totally non-productive member of society and contribute nothing to the economic, social or political landscape, such is my prerogative. There is nothing forcing a citizen of the United States to participate in any aspect of society. 2. Well, it’s your duty as a moral human being. That depends on what you consider the ultimate goal of a moral human being to be. Once you identify a goal we can debate how the act of voting contributes to that goal. For instance, if the goal of a moral human being is to make the world a better place to live, and you can convince me that making the USA the most powerful country it can be would advance that end, wouldn’t my time be better spent contributing to the US economy for the 45 minutes than traveling to the voting booth, waiting in line & voting? Using those 45 minutes to buy an ice cream cone will surely benefit the US more than casting a vote which doesn’t matter. 3. Voting will make you a socially responsible person by making you actively participate in the democratic process, regardless of whether or not the act itself has any meaning. Merely by weighing my options I am being socially responsible. It would be socially irresponsible of me to perform an act that I knew had no meaning. If a reasoned analysis concludes that a double scoop rocky road helps out the country more than a wasted vote, why shouldn’t I go straight to the local Baskin Robins? 4. If everybody decided not to vote, then the apathy might lead to the loss of a democratic government all together. First, we are talking about just one person. Just like my vote won’t matter, neither will my decision to not vote. Anyway, if everyone decided to act like me (make a reasoned decision of whhich course of action is the most socially responsible) then it would not be apathy that drove the decision, but love of the country. So is my logic flawed? Have I missed something? Or is voting really a big waste of time? Morgan -I’ll see you at the Baskin Robins on Nov. 7! ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/2 "2000-04-19T02:41:00Z")
You have to spend 45 minutes to vote? Move to the coutry, honey. I’ve never had to wait a minute. Actually, Gordon Tullock of the University of Arizona wrote a piece called “The Mathematics of Voting and Political Ignorance” where he argues that not only is voting irrational, so is staying informed on political matters. The small likelihood of your voting making a difference simply doesn’t justify the time spent. That said, I still vote regularly, if for no other reason than to send a message. I voted libertarian once (and only once), not because I was in love with the libertarian candidate, but because I despised the Republican and the Democrat equally. Did anyone get the message? Probably not, but it made me feel better. I did make a difference once, but it was in a race I didn’t much care about. The county sheriff candidate I voted for in the primary beat his opponent 473-472. I don’t kid myself that the same could ever happen in a presidential election, of course. * * * Work is the curse of the drinking classes. (Oscar Wilde) ---
**Author:** ![Kupek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90db22/32.png) [@Kupek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kupek)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/3 "2000-04-19T02:45:00Z")
**Morgan:** _First, we are talking about just one person._ There are something like 200 million "one person"s in this country. I understand your point, but it’s the descisions of individual people that determine the fate of the masses. Small things add up to big things. _Anyway, if everyone decided to act like me (make a reasoned decision of whhich course of action is the most socially responsible) then it would not be apathy that drove the decision, but love of the country._ That I just don’t understand. You seem to be assuming that everyone who doesn’t vote does so for the same reasons. They don’t. Some people don’t care, others don’t like the candidates, others have moral issues. And I don’t see how your descision not to vote can be construed as “socially responsible.” I understand your points, but it’s largely the principal of the issue. I am 18, and this will be the first election I will participate in. I have many problems with this country, and I bitch about this stuff a lot. Unless I vote, I don’t feel like I have the right to bitch about this stuff. It’s how I feel about it now. I do think there should be a “None of the above” option. I don’t particularly like one of the two candidates, but I _really_ don’t like the other one, and _really_ don’t want someone with his policies being the President of the United States. So I will pick what I view as the lesser of two evils. But conceivabley, sometime in the future, I will run across a situation where the candidates are both equally evil to me. Yet, I want it known that I made the effort to vote. That’s what “None of the above” would mean. I think that a significant number of “None of the above” votes could be a way of measuring how displeased people are with the current political situation. _I just can’t justify wasting my time to go to the ballot box._ Then don’t. The less people who vote, the more mine counts. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/4 "2000-04-19T04:49:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Morgan: > **I’ll bet that there has never been a presidential election where an Electoral College vote was decided by less than a 10,000 vote margin.** Hey, I’ll take that bet! **Every** electoral college vote was decided by less than 10,000 votes. This is easy to understand as there are allways much less than 10,000 **total** votes in the electoral college. So, what did I win? Peace ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/5 "2000-04-19T05:00:00Z")
I think the OP means a 10,000 vote margin to decide one state’s electoral vote. At least that’s why I think. In 1976, Jimmy Carter beat Gerald Ford in Ohio by 11,116 votes, which ending up being .17% of the total vote in Ohio in that election. In 1996, Clinton beat Dole by 4,730 votes in Nevada, although that was 1.1% of the total vote. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/6 "2000-04-19T07:02:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Morgan: > \*\* > Let me quickly try to refute some reasons that that people may come up with: > > 1. It’s your duty as a citizen. > Why? It is my duty as a citizen to obey the law. That is pretty much where my duties as a citizen end. > \*\* I don’t think that’s much of a refutation. **Why** isn’t voting part of your duty? Because it isn’t required by law? I’m not sure I can convince you that you have responsibilities beyond simply obeying the law, but that doesn’t mean I agree that you don’t. And how can you compare getting an ice cream cone to voting. The former affects one person; the lateer hundred of millions. ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/7 "2000-04-19T15:16:00Z")
If you do not vote, you better not bitch. Voting gives me a license to complain bout how things are being run. I refuse to give that right away… * * * Yer pal, Satan [http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif](http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif) _I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR: One week, three days, 13 hours, 15 minutes and 51 seconds. 422 cigarettes not smoked, saving $52.76. Life saved: 1 day, 11 hours, 10 minutes._ ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/8 "2000-04-19T16:27:00Z")
I vote this topic belongs in Great Debates. All in favor? It’s unanimous. Cool. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/9 "2000-04-19T16:30:00Z")
And speaking of Great debates, I would be happy to express my viewpoints, but I’ve already done so!, so I’ll just include a link to this here thread. [http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001581.html](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001581.html) ---
**Author:** ![Morgan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Morgan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/10 "2000-04-19T16:38:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by bibliophage: > \*\*That said, I still vote regularly, if for no other reason than to send a message. I voted libertarian once (and only once), not because I was in love with the libertarian candidate, but because I despised the Republican and the Democrat equally. Did anyone get the message? Probably not, but it made me feel better. > \*\* If something makes you feel better, and its not hurting anyone, by all means do it. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Kupek: > \*\*There are something like 200 million "one person"s in this country. I understand your point, but it’s the descisions of individual people that determine the fate of the masses. Small things add up to big things. > \*\* Lots of small things may add up to a big thing, but a single small thing is still a small thing. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Kupek: > **You seem to be assuming that everyone who doesn’t vote does so for the same reasons.** The original question was why should **I** vote. The reason the question was framed in that way was to prevent someone from saying “its the socially responsible thing to do” without any proof of why it is socially responsible. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by BobT: > \*\*I think the OP means a 10,000 vote margin to decide one state’s electoral vote. At least that’s why I think. > \*\* That’s what I ment to say. My bad. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by BobT: > **In 1996, Clinton beat Dole by 4,730 votes in Nevada, although that was 1.1% of the total vote.** You win a smiley 😉 . I should move to Nevada. Not only is gambling and prostitution legal, but your vote counts! > [@](#): > > Originally posted by The Ryan: > **Why isn’t voting part of your duty? Because it isn’t required by law? I’m not sure I can convince you that you have responsibilities beyond simply obeying the law, but that doesn’t mean I agree that you don’t.** As I alluded to in the OP, I believe the duties of a citizen are not the same as the duties of a moral person. It is a purely semantic distinction which really has no meaning. The discussion is not limited to one or the other. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by The Ryan: > \*\*And how can you compare getting an ice cream cone to voting. The former affects one person; the lateer hundred of millions. > \*\* I’m contributing to the economy. Not only does every penny that gets spent contribute to the GNP, on a local level I am helping out the business owner, the clerk behind the counter, the landlord, etc. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Satan: > \*\*If you do not vote, you better not bitch. > Voting gives me a license to complain bout how things are being run. I refuse to give that right away… > \*\* Why shouldn’t I bitch? I pay my taxes. Why do I need to perform a useless act before my voice can be heard? Heck, I even bitch about what is going on in foriegn countries. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/11 "2000-04-19T16:40:00Z")
Morgan said: > [@](#): > > I’ll bet that there has never been a presidential election where an Electoral College vote was decided by less than a 10,000 vote margin. Why waste my time? To further BobT’s point: In 1976, Jimmy Carter won Ohio by about 10,000 votes, and Hawaii by less than 1,000. Had both of these states voted for Ford, instead, Ford would have won the election. As for whether voting is a waste of your time, maybe it is on the national level, where you’re just one in a sea of a hundred million. But at the local level, I’m willing to bet there are a lot less people vying for the attention of your mayor or county councilperson or state delegate. So voting in local races carries a lot more weight, so your opinion matters more. And as long as you’re voting in the local races, why not go ahead and vote for the state-wide and national candidates? * * * JMCJ “Y’know, I would invite y’all to go feltch a dead goat, but that would be abuse of a perfectly good dead goat and an insult to all those who engage in that practice for fun.” -weirddave, set to maximum flame ---
**Author:** ![Morgan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Morgan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/12 "2000-04-20T05:02:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by John Corrado: > \*\*As for whether voting is a waste of your time, maybe it is on the national level, where you’re just one in a sea of a hundred million. But at the local level, I’m willing to bet there are a lot less people vying for the attention of your mayor or county councilperson or state delegate. So voting in local races carries a lot more weight, so your opinion matters more. And as long as you’re voting in the local races, why not go ahead and vote for the state-wide and national candidates? > \*\* Although the OP was specifically tailored to presidential elections, you have a point. The cost is not 45 minutes, but only an extra minute. If I make $6/hour, in one minute I could have made $0.10. Is voting in a presidential election even worth a dime? Of course, I’m assuming that the value of voting in a local election is worth 44 minutes of my time. I’ll agree to that point for the purposes of this debate. ---
**Author:** ![Kupek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90db22/32.png) [@Kupek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kupek)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/13 "2000-04-20T05:36:00Z")
**Morgan:** _Lots of small things may add up to a big thing, but a single small thing is still a small thing._ You’re missing the point. Your single small thing gets added to millions of other people’s small things. If you want to discuss why you, personally, shouldn’t vote, that’s fine, but to discuss that, we have to look at the macro and microscopic levels. To help demonstrate my point, every election year, many people (I’m going to say millions, but I’m not sure the percentages that vote) come to the same conclusion you do, and don’t bother. If all of these people had voted, the outcome may have been different. One person wouldn’t swing anything, but a few million one persons would. You’re going to now go on and on about how you _are_ only one person, and you’re not understanding the principal. It’s called doing your part. If you don’t understand this, I can’t explain it to you. I would like to point out that I have no problem if someone decides they have a moral issue with voting, whatever it may be. They’ve made a deciscion based on issues, not just because they don’t want to be bothered. It’s different than just being lazy. _Why shouldn’t I bitch? I pay my taxes. Why do I need to perform a useless act before my voice can be heard? Heck, I even bitch about what is going on in foriegn countries._ Taxes give the government money so it can operate. Voting tells people in the government what the people want. Two different things, and they don’t work with out each other. If all you’re doing is paying your taxes, you’re not doing the whole deal. If you want the government to change how it is spending the money you’re giving it, _vote_. That’s the difference. Will it really make a difference? Probably not. But it demonstrates that you care enough about the issues your bitching about to make the (tiny) effort needed to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Morgan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Morgan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/14 "2000-04-20T05:42:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by oldscratch: > \*\*And speaking of Great debates, I would be happy to express my viewpoints, but I’ve already done so!, so I’ll just include a link to this here thread. [http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001581.html](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001581.html) > \*\* There is some great stuff between oldscratch and DSYoungEsq there! However, it isn’t totally relevant to the discussion here. DSYoungEsq’s main point is that a represenative democracy is a good thing, therefore voting is a good thing. I never suggested that giving people the opportunity to vote is anything but a good thing. The question is whether I should exercise the option. One of oldscratch’s points is that there are better and more effective ways to change the political landscape than by voting (e.g., protests, demonstrations, boycotts). A good point, but not totally relevant to this discussion. One specific argument from that thread deserves a reply: > [@](#): > > Originally posted by DSYoungEsq: > \*\*If EVERYONE came to the same conclusion, no one would vote. \*\* You can’t apply a static analysis to what is a dynamic phenomena. At some point, people will conclude that their votes matter. When that happens, those who are making reasoned choices of what to do on Nov. 7 will act accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Morgan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Morgan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/15 "2000-04-19T18:22:00Z")
I’ll only reply to one point in Kupek’s post since most of the issues were covered elsewhere. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Kupek: > **Will it really make a difference? Probably not. But it demonstrates that you care enough about the issues your bitching about to make the (tiny) effort needed to vote.** Why do I need to demonstrate how much I care to anyone? I assume you are talking on a personal level, since you acknowldege that on a national level one vote doesn’t matter. Who am I trying to impress? ---
**Author:** ![lswote](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lswote/32/5737_2.png) [@lswote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lswote)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/16 "2000-04-19T21:38:00Z")
If the election meant something I would vote but personally I think the next presidential election will come down to Gore against Bush and I don’t think either is a great choice. And there is a downside about voting that noone has mentioned. Where I last was registered to vote in Texas, voter registration was what was used for jury duty rosters. I am self-employed and I lose money if I am at jury duty and can’t work. But not voting, I stay out of jury pools. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/17 "2000-04-19T21:52:00Z")
Hey **Morgan** , It’s not my fault you misstated the bet. Where is my smilie? 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Morgan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Morgan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/18 "2000-04-20T00:29:00Z")
Okay. Here it is. One regulation smiley coming up: 🙂 “I have come to the conclusion that politics are too serious a matter to be left to the politicians.” - Charles de Gaulle ---
**Author:** ![oasis325](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/74df32/32.png) [@oasis325](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oasis325)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/19 "2000-04-20T00:40:00Z")
Morgan: you are assuming that even if you DO vote, that the person you are voting for will actually do what he/she promises to do… I completely see your point of view… I don’t think even YOU realize how pointless voting is! That doesn’t mean that involvement in public affairs isn’t important. I just feel that our present political system is a sham which does nothing for the citizens of this country. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-vote/18008/20 "2000-04-20T01:06:00Z")
“If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates.” * * * Sorry for the silly-ism in the hallowed GD forum. Back to your originally scheduled debate.