# Why was Gandalf so sure that Sauron & Smaug would help one another, given the chance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 25, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401 "2009-02-25T18:58:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/21 "2009-02-25T21:53:41Z")
Smaugster. The Smaugmeister. Smaugerino. The Smauginator. Makin’ copies. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/22 "2009-02-25T22:16:04Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Finally I would say that just as Sauron was less than Morgoth, so Smaug was less than Glaurung and Ancalagon to name two of the mightiest of the old dragons, and since the latter two did much as Morgoth wanted, so might Smaug for Sauron - which doesn’t necessarily equate with doing what he’s told when he’s told, explicitly. And as a footnote, Bilbo only needed to talk to Smaug for ten minutes or so to dupe him into showing off his underside and revealing his weak spot, so Smaug could plainly be flattered and manipulated by a subtler mind (which Sauron certainly was in his younger days - that was how he brought about the Downfall of Numenor). In addition to this, and to Sauron’s powers of persuasion (which led to Saruman’s downfall, after all), both Sauron and Smaug were under the domination of the will of Morgoth. _Every_ creature and servant of Morgoth remained under the will of Morgoth, even after the latter was exiled into the void. As Tolkien later implied in his letters, Arda had basically become Morgoth’s version of the One Ring, and his influence upon Arda continued even in his absence. Having once been under the will of Morgoth, both Sauron and Smaug continued to carry out his will, each in their own manner. I think Gandalf could be sure that Smaug would aid Sauron because _both were still serving the will of Morgoth_. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/23 "2009-02-25T22:24:14Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Seems more likely that he’d say, “Yo, Smaugster, you got a chink in your armor. Hold on and I’ll get a couple orcs on it. I realize it’s an inconvenience, so you can eat the work-orcs afterwards.” And _THAT’S_ how he could get Smaug to accept a Ring or equivalent. Perhaps something as simple as embedding one of the remaining Dwarven Rings into the patch against Smaug’s skin. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/24 "2009-02-25T22:55:28Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > In addition to this, and to Sauron’s powers of persuasion (which led to Saruman’s downfall, after all), both Sauron and Smaug were under the domination of the will of Morgoth. _Every_ creature and servant of Morgoth remained under the will of Morgoth, even after the latter was exiled into the void. Actually Saruman’s fall began without the direct influence of Sauron and the Palantir. As he studied the Ringlore he fell from his true path and mission and this is why he first blocked actions to force the Necromancer out and then went along with it. He at first thought that having Sauron nearby and still weak would help Saruman find the Ring. He then got fearful that Sauron had recovered too much and would get the Ring first and thus Saruman was willing to drive him out. Sorry, a minor point but I thought worth posting. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/25 "2009-02-25T23:24:34Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Actually Saruman’s fall began without the direct influence of Sauron and the Palantir. As he studied the Ringlore he fell from his true path and mission and this is why he first blocked actions to force the Necromancer out and then went along with it. He at first thought that having Sauron nearby and still weak would help Saruman find the Ring. He then got fearful that Sauron had recovered too much and would get the Ring first and thus Saruman was willing to drive him out. > > Sorry, a minor point but I thought worth posting. It’s a good point. I feel obliged to add that Saruman’s having fallen completed under the sway of Sauron is a movie-ism, or at least I think it is. Wasn’t he always planning to seize the ring for himself, given the chance? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/26 "2009-02-25T23:26:43Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And _THAT’S_ how he could get Smaug to accept a Ring or equivalent. Perhaps something as simple as embedding one of the remaining Dwarven Rings into the patch against Smaug’s skin. I’m not sure that the Rings (any of them) would work for a dragon. Having been bred by Morgoth rather than created by Eru (or hallowed by him after the fact, as the Dwarves were), they surely did not have souls, and I’d bet all the mithril in my hoard that ring-magic required souls. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/27 "2009-02-25T23:31:21Z")
Plus, is it really even a good idea to give a Dwarven ring to a dragon? After a while, the dragon might become obsessed with hoarding gold. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/28 "2009-02-25T23:32:47Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > It’s a good point. I feel obliged to add that Saruman’s having fallen completed under the sway of Sauron is a movie-ism, or at least I think it is. Wasn’t he always planning to seize the ring for himself, given the chance? Yes, he was, but he was also on the end of Sauron’s leash, thanks to the _palantir_, and I’m sure it’s remarked somewhere how for all his best efforts Saruman ends up becoming just a pale imitation of the real thing. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/29 "2009-02-25T23:41:40Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m not sure that the Rings (any of them) would work for a dragon. Having been bred by Morgoth rather than created by Eru (or hallowed by him after the fact, as the Dwarves were), they surely did not have souls, and I’d bet all the mithril in my hoard that ring-magic required souls. I’d not go that far. Like the eagles, I’d wager that dragons in the beginning were minor-league maiar. Only these got seduced over to Morgoth, the same way the mightier Valaraukar did. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/30 "2009-02-25T23:44:48Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Yes, he was, but he was also on the end of Sauron’s leash, thanks to the _palantir_, and I’m sure it’s remarked somewhere how for all his best efforts Saruman ends up becoming just a pale imitation of the real thing. I agree that Saruman’s just a poser; I’m saying that he’s NOT just a tool. He was always never a member of the “Middle-earth rightfully belongs to Annatar” club. He was a member of the “I will pretend to belong to the ’ “Middle-earth rightfully belongs to Annatar” ’ club’ as part of a devious and hubristic plan to make myself Lord of Middle-earth” club. That club had a very difficult time selling t-shirts. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/31 "2009-02-25T23:46:26Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > I’d not go that far. Like the eagles, I’d wager that dragons in the beginning were minor-league maiar. Only these got seduced over to Morgoth, the same way the mightier Valaraukar did. I don’t have the books at hand, so I cannot argue with you at this point. Apropos of nothing, **Cinderella the Rhymer** just send me an email in which she referred to me as “Pappy.” I’m sure she was just joking, but nonetheless I am grinning like an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/32 "2009-02-25T23:56:07Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Yes, he was, but he was also on the end of Sauron’s leash, thanks to the _palantir_, and I’m sure it’s remarked somewhere how for all his best efforts Saruman ends up becoming just a pale imitation of the real thing. Which is somewhat ironic, since Sauron himself was but a pale imitation of Morgoth. And even though Saruman’s slide into evil may have begun with his studying ringlore, before being more directly influenced by Sauron’s wiles… ringlore _itself_ had much of its origin from Sauron. Despite that Celebrimbor may have been able to make something hale out of the ringlore, it is certain that Sauron’s sharing ringlore with the elves was but another trap to bring them under his own will. That Saruman fell under Sauron’s influence by his earlier ringlore trap, or whether he fell under it later through more direct contact via palantír is surely the quibbliest of quibbles. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/33 "2009-02-26T00:09:18Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Yes, he was, but he was also on the end of Sauron’s leash, thanks to the _palantir_, and I’m sure it’s remarked somewhere how for all his best efforts Saruman ends up becoming just a pale imitation of the real thing. This quote I found indirectly mentions that. > [@](#): > > “A strong place and wonderful was Isengard, and long it had been beautiful. But Saruman had slowly shaped it to his shifting purposes, and made it better, as he thought, being deceived-for all those arts and subtle devices, for which he forsook his former wisdom, and which fondly he imagined were his own, came but from Mordor; so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child’s model or a slave’s flattery, of that vast fortress, armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dûr, the Dark Tower, which suffered no rival, and laughed at flattery, biding its time, secure in its pride and its immeasurable strength.”-Book III, Chapter 8. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/34 "2009-02-26T15:17:40Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Thanks! > > So, um, what does that mean, exactly? > > Thou & I art slightly different flavors of nerd, it seems. What does it mean? Nothing important – “Warrior-Skald” is the name of one of the sets of traits you can adopt in that particular online game. It’s just that every time I see it on my screen I mentally add “the Rhymer” to it. > [@Terrifel](#): > > Smaugster. The Smaugmeister. Smaugerino. The Smauginator. Makin’ copies. \ > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > He was a member of the “I will pretend to belong to the ’ “Middle-earth rightfully belongs to Annatar” ’ club’ as part of a devious and hubristic plan to make myself Lord of Middle-earth” club. > > That club had a very difficult time selling t-shirts. Minimum size: 4X RR ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/35 "2009-02-26T15:51:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > This quote I found indirectly mentions that… :: shakes his head in admiration :: And that, my friends, is why I love the Professor so. As to the OP, remember that Gandalf had seen a lot of Very Bad Things happen in his time in Middle-earth, and we can hardly blame him for being Mr. Worst-Case Scenario when he considered a possible alliance between Sauron and Smaug. If he overstated its likelihood a bit, it might have been just to impress his Hobbit friends with just how bad it would’ve been, had it come to pass. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/36 "2009-02-26T15:52:52Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > :: shakes his head in admiration :: > > And that, my friends, is why I love the Professor so. > > As to the OP, remember that Gandalf had seen a lot of Very Bad Things happen in his time in Middle-earth, and we can hardly blame him for being Mr. Worst-Case Scenario when he considered a possible alliance between Sauron and Smaug. If he overstated its likelihood a bit, it might have been just to impress his Hobbit friends with just how bad it would’ve been, had it come to pass. Hey, it’s not ME asking; it’s my stepdaughter. I’m just using you guys so I can continue to look smart for **Cinderella the Rhymer**. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/37 "2009-02-26T15:58:49Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > Plus, is it really even a good idea to give a Dwarven ring to a dragon? > > After a while, the dragon might become obsessed with hoarding gold. And brewing beer. Let us not forget the beer… ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/38 "2009-02-26T15:59:55Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > And brewing beer. Let us not forget the beer… I am morally certain that Dwarves do not brew beer, and never did. They bought their food from Hobbits & Men. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/39 "2009-02-26T16:14:38Z")
It seems that if Sauron had been a little wiser he had two huge potential allies to convert to his cause. The Balrog and the Dragon surely would have tipped the scales in his favor. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/40 "2009-02-26T16:16:28Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I am morally certain that Dwarves do not brew beer, and never did. They bought their food from Hobbits & Men. Hmmmm. As a general rule, yes, but I wouldn’t be so sure they wouldn’t have brewed their own beer and other spirits to their liking. Anything in the Tolkien canon to suggest Dwarves never brewed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401.md?page=3)