# Why was Gandalf so sure that Sauron & Smaug would help one another, given the chance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 25, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401 "2009-02-25T18:58:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/41 "2009-02-26T16:22:37Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I am morally certain that Dwarves do not brew beer, and never did. They bought their food from Hobbits & Men. > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Hmmmm. As a general rule, yes, but I wouldn’t be so sure they wouldn’t have brewed their own beer and other spirits to their liking. Anything in the Tolkien canon to suggest Dwarves never brewed? I agree, when Dwarves fell on hard time, they surely brewed their own Ale. They just preferred to wealthy enough to buy their food and ale. > [@Lochdale](#): > > It seems that if Sauron had been a little wiser he had two huge potential allies to convert to his cause. The Balrog and the Dragon surely would have tipped the scales in his favor. I think even Sauron might not have been aware of the Balrog or he did not have a method to entice to activity outside of Moria. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/42 "2009-02-26T16:36:38Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > It seems that if Sauron had been a little wiser he had two huge potential allies to convert to his cause. The Balrog and the Dragon surely would have tipped the scales in his favor. They could argue about their respective wingspan (or lack therof). I started a thread on it a while back, but I’m still amused and entertained by the thought of the Balrog getting the Ring. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/43 "2009-02-26T17:04:23Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Hmmmm. As a general rule, yes, but I wouldn’t be so sure they wouldn’t have brewed their own beer and other spirits to their liking. Anything in the Tolkien canon to suggest Dwarves never brewed? What, haven’t you seen my definition of moral certainty in other threads? When I say I’m morally certain, I mean I don’t have a shred of actual evidence. It means I’m letting the spirit of Michael Behe fill me. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/44 "2009-02-26T17:06:41Z")
> [@RiverRunner](#): > > Minimum size: 4X Which is also known as “Gamer Medium.” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/45 "2009-02-26T17:58:19Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > They could argue about their respective wingspan (or lack therof). > > I started a thread on it a while back, but I’m still amused and entertained by the thought of the Balrog getting the Ring. I feel both happy and sad that I get the joke in the first sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/46 "2009-02-26T18:35:12Z")
Welcome to Tolkien Geek Purgatory. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/47 "2009-02-26T21:02:05Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > … > > As to the OP, remember that Gandalf had seen a lot of Very Bad Things happen in his time in Middle-earth, and we can hardly blame him for being Mr. Worst-Case Scenario when he considered a possible alliance between Sauron and Smaug. If he overstated its likelihood a bit, it might have been just to impress his Hobbit friends with just how bad it would’ve been, had it come to pass. Gandalf said it. I believe it. That settles it. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/48 "2009-02-26T21:20:41Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I think even Sauron might not have been aware of the Balrog or he did not have a method to entice to activity outside of Moria. LOTR Appendix A III “Durin’s Folk” opines in a footnote that when the Dwarves of Moria dug too deep for mithril and found the Balrog, it had already been awakened by Sauron’s malice. If so, he knew it was there, but either had no means to lure it out or figured it would do a bang-up job keeping the Dwarves out of the greatest stronghold of that age. Props to **Der** for finding the quote - even when Saruman was trying to be Dark Lord in Waiting on his own initiative, he was being baby Sauron whether he wanted to or nor. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/49 "2009-02-26T21:42:26Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > LOTR Appendix A III “Durin’s Folk” opines in a footnote that when the Dwarves of Moria dug too deep for mithril and found the Balrog, it had already been awakened by Sauron’s malice. If so, he knew it was there, but either had no means to lure it out or figured it would do a bang-up job keeping the Dwarves out of the greatest stronghold of that age. > > Props to **Der** for finding the quote - even when Saruman was trying to be Dark Lord in Waiting on his own initiative, he was being baby Sauron whether he wanted to or nor. Good find I had forgotten that part. But does Sauron’s malice implies he knew what he awoke or that his evil will was disturbing and awakening all the other evil within the range of his malice. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/50 "2009-02-26T21:49:36Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Good find I had forgotten that part. But does Sauron’s malice implies he knew what he awoke or that his evil will was disturbing and awakening all the other evil within the range of his malice. I’d say so. I expect that, while Sauron was not entirely certain a terror remained in Moria, certainly hoped so, and did some maiaristic mojo to awake the Balrog just on general evil principles. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/51 "2009-02-26T22:17:07Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Welcome to Tolkien Geek Purgatory. I’m merely the lowest of acolytes but looking forward to learning more. Just getting back into Tolkien and boy do I love Middle-Earth! ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/52 "2009-02-26T22:18:34Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’d say so. I expect that, while Sauron was not entirely certain a terror remained in Moria, certainly hoped so, and did some maiaristic mojo to awake the Balrog just on general evil principles. It’s a master stroke by Sauron but one wonders what the Balrog could have done on the field of battle. That said, Sauron was not quite ready to strike in the Fellowship. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/53 "2009-02-26T22:27:46Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > It’s a master stroke by Sauron but one wonders what the Balrog could have done on the field of battle. That said, Sauron was not quite ready to strike in the Fellowship. One wonders if that possibility might have been enough reason for Mandos to have allowed Glorfindel back to Middle-Earth, too. (he being one of the few in Arda with “balrog slayer” on his resumé) ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/54 "2009-02-26T22:37:47Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > One wonders if that possibility might have been enough reason for Mandos to have allowed Glorfindel back to Middle-Earth, too. (he being one of the few in Arda with “balrog slayer” on his resumé) Good point and it would clear up the “two Glorfindels” issue. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/55 "2009-02-26T23:03:59Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’d say so. I expect that, while Sauron was not entirely certain a terror remained in Moria, certainly hoped so, and did some maiaristic mojo to awake the Balrog just on general evil principles. One aspect of which might have been sending that Watcher-squid thing to guard the Moria gates. Someone only gets in if they really want in, and someone that determined is someone who needs to be Balrog chow. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/56 "2009-02-26T23:15:26Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Good point and it would clear up the “two Glorfindels” issue. That is pretty well cleared. Tolkien mused on it often and came down clearly on the side the Glorfindel returned. He leaned towards the idea the Glorfindel came over as a precursor to the 5 Wizards. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/57 "2009-02-26T23:38:02Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > That is pretty well cleared. Tolkien mused on it often and came down clearly on the side the Glorfindel returned. He leaned towards the idea the Glorfindel came over as a precursor to the 5 Wizards. Ahh interesting. Makes sense , thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/58 "2009-02-27T02:10:06Z")
Hang on, I thought Tolkien implied that Glorfindel came back _with_ the Istari? It is not as though there is a ferry service from Aman… did he come over with the host for the War of Wrath, then? (curse you, slow-reading book-borrowing friend!) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/59 "2009-02-27T02:24:00Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Hang on, I thought Tolkien implied that Glorfindel came back _with_ the Istari? It is not as though there is a ferry service from Aman… did he come over with the host for the War of Wrath, then? > > (curse you, slow-reading book-borrowing friend!) He debated several possibilities on Glorfindel. Glorfindel came over with Gandalf. (Who was the last of the Wizards to arrive) or that he actually showed up in the second age (after the Ring was forged and the tower of Barad-Dur was built) or early in the third age. As to the Wizards it appears the Professor was leaning towards the idea that they came over in 3-4 trips. The Blue Wizards together, Saruman and Radagast together and Gandalf by himself and landing at the Havens appears to be the likeliest. Tolkien was sure though that Glorfindel was the one and the same as he who died slaying a Balrog. Elves basically did not re-use names and they did get new bodies after a while of varying degree. Whether they re-incorporate as adults or get reborn was not 100% answered but it appeared Tolkien was leaning to the returned to their mature bodies. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401/60 "2009-02-27T02:29:00Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > it appeared Tolkien was leaning to the returned to their mature bodies. Yeah, JRRT decided it wouldn’t be right to have parents produce a kid of their own, only to have him turn out to be somebody else when he grew up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-gandalf-so-sure-that-sauron-smaug-would-help-one-another-given-the-chance/487401.md?page=4)