# Why was Mexico's revolution less successful than the American one? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750 "2011-11-22T15:06:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/41 "2011-11-24T02:55:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Kind of cherry picking there, aren’t we? Whoops, meant to do this above. I don’t think that the successful British administration of colonies is a total non-starter. Look at the U.S., Canada, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and so on. Even Belize and Jamaica are better off than their neighbors. India’s in better shape than most of the rest of South Asia. What former Spanish colonies are doing as well as Canada or Australia? Argentina is about the best-off of former Spanish colonies, and even they’re a little weaker than the best former British successes. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/42 "2011-11-24T04:37:34Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Spain by a mile. Just compare Canada and the US with Latin America So how’s Belice doing these days? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/43 "2011-11-24T04:41:18Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > Whoops, meant to do this above. > > I don’t think that the successful British administration of colonies is a total non-starter. Look at the U.S., Canada, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and so on. Even Belize and Jamaica are better off than their neighbors. India’s in better shape than most of the rest of South Asia. What former Spanish colonies are doing as well as Canada or Australia? Argentina is about the best-off of former Spanish colonies, and even they’re a little weaker than the best former British successes. I have been to India and its neighbors. My country, México, is far better off. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/44 "2011-11-24T04:57:06Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > I have been to India and its neighbors. My country, México, is far better off. Is it really, as a whole? I don’t doubt that parts of Mexico are fairly well off, but the northern section has a truly nasty drug war going on, and India doesn’t have any more public corruption, does it? ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/45 "2011-11-24T05:02:54Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > So how’s Belice doing these days? Better than most of its neighbors, isn’t it? It’s rated higher on the 2011 Human Development Index than Guatemala or Nicaragua, which is a start, at least. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/46 "2011-11-24T05:09:16Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > Worse for who? The nation states that formed out of the freed colonies, or the indigenous populations? It is easy to argue that the English model led to more stable countries, but if you look at how many of the native population remain and what their position in society is today, the argument becomes much more murky. If I had to be a black slave I’d much rather be one under Spain. Spain at least thought that I had a soul and could become “civilized.” They were also open to more race mixing, whereas the English colonies had that pesky one-drop rule. Also, it’s an easier job to administer colonies when you displace/murder the vast majority of the indigenous population. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/47 "2011-11-24T05:23:36Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > Better than most of its neighbors, isn’t it? It’s rated higher on the 2011 Human Development Index than Guatemala or Nicaragua, which is a start, at least. That is sort of like saying that my beloved Arkansas is behind Wyoming in meth use, or richer than Mississippi and West Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/48 "2011-11-24T06:05:25Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > That is sort of like saying that my beloved Arkansas is behind Wyoming in meth use, or richer than Mississippi and West Virginia. Well, it is, isn’t it? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/49 "2011-11-24T12:12:07Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > Better than most of its neighbors, isn’t it? It’s rated higher on the 2011 Human Development Index than Guatemala or Nicaragua, which is a start, at least. It also has a border with México which according to the criteria found on your cite is far ahead of Belice. As are other Central and South American countries. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/50 "2011-11-24T12:22:47Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > Is it really, as a whole? I don’t doubt that parts of Mexico are fairly well off, but the northern section has a truly nasty drug war going on, and India doesn’t have any more public corruption, does it? Have you ever been to either country? And while we are making comparisons and you mentioned India’s neighbors, México is far better off than Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Sr Lanka which were ruled by the British. In fact most Latin American countries all rank higher on the scale you linked to. To me it appears that the former British colonies that are the most advanced are the ones in which they basically eliminated or greatly reduced or marginalized the indigenous population. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/51 "2011-11-24T15:08:04Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > Well, it is, isn’t it? 😉 Well, yeah, but that ain’t sayin’ much. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/52 "2011-11-24T16:38:07Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > So how’s Belice doing these days? [A place you can put your arms around.](http://www.avramdavidson.org/hidalgo.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/53 "2011-11-24T23:41:05Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think it’s a combination of this: > > …and luck. IMHO, the biggest factor in post-revolution success than whether or not the leaders of the revolution are nice people. > > In other words, the US lucked out when George “Snowball” Washington became the de facto leader of the Revolution. Russia, Mexico, _et al_ got Napoleon instead. Pure BS, Napoleon, for all his wrongs, cooled of the Revolution. None of the French revolutionaries started out with intents of massacre. But France faced far greater opposition in its Revolution than the US ever did (and it didnt have a powerful state backing it, nor did it receive any tangible support from the nation whose revolution it had just helped). As a result, the level of violence was constantly upped. That’s how angels end knees deep in blood. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > America got Washington because of a tradition of representative governance-the Founding Fathers didn’t come out of a vacuum. And yet, the supposed point of origin of the American Revolution is “lack of representation”. Chose your myth, you cant have both. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > .Spain by a mile. Just compare Canada and the US with Latin America Yeah, I’m sure the legion of British colonial failures in Africa is a testament to that. Gonna bow out of this thread though, it’s cringe factor is dangerously close to that other thread in GQ. Americans are certainly exceptional in their patting themselves on the back, no question. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/54 "2011-11-24T23:56:14Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > And yet, the supposed point of origin of the American Revolution is “lack of representation”. Chose your myth, you cant have both. It was a bunch of wealthy guys who didn’t want to pay their taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/55 "2011-11-25T00:27:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Kind of cherry picking there, aren’t we? How exactly? I’m comparing the major British colonies in America with that of Spain’s. > [@appleciders](#): > > Well, that and long-term engagement in Enlightenment philosophy and theory of government. The large middle class in America gave rise to lots of idealistic armchair philosophers, and some of those turned out to be damned good at it, like Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John and Sam Adams, and Ben Franklin. To say that representative government produced these sorts of men as a matter of course is a bit of a misstatement. America had some of the most important thinkers of the age framing the Constitution and serving in the early government. To dismiss the influence of Enlightenment philosophers like Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, and Montesquieu is silly. Of course the Enlightenment thinkers influeneced them, it should be noted though many of those thinkers admired the English system of governance. > [@CBEscapee](#): > > I have been to India and its neighbors. My country, México, is far better off. Largely due to its Hindu culture, which British administration failed to fully reform. In areas where British culture has been far more strongly adopted the differences are obvioous. In addition Mexico has the benefit of being right next to the US. > [@CBEscapee](#): > > Have you ever been to either country? And while we are making comparisons and you mentioned India’s neighbors, México is far better off than Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Sr Lanka which were ruled by the British. In fact most Latin American countries all rank higher on the scale you linked to. > > To me it appears that the former British colonies that are the most advanced are the ones in which they basically eliminated or greatly reduced or marginalized the indigenous population. No look at Singapore and Malaysia. > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Pure BS, Napoleon, for all his wrongs, cooled of the Revolution. None of the French revolutionaries started out with intents of massacre. But France faced far greater opposition in its Revolution than the US ever did (and it didnt have a powerful state backing it, nor did it receive any tangible support from the nation whose revolution it had just helped). As a result, the level of violence was constantly upped. That’s how angels end knees deep in blood. Heard of Robespierre or the Reign of Terror. And the other powers waged war only because France tried to export revolution, > [@](#): > > And yet, the supposed point of origin of the American Revolution is “lack of representation”. Chose your myth, you cant have both. There were something called legislatures in each colony in addition to town meetings/ :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Yeah, I’m sure the legion of British colonial failures in Africa is a testament to that. Legion of failures? British colonies are overall the most successful African countries-especially Botswana, Zimbabwe (until Mugabe), and South Africa (if Zuma doesn’t run it into the shiiter). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/56 "2011-11-25T02:22:00Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Largely due to its Hindu culture, which British administration failed to fully reform. In areas where British culture has been far more strongly adopted the differences are obvioous. Well, this ought to be good: what the fuck are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/57 "2011-11-25T03:16:47Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Heard of Robespierre or the Reign of Terror. And the other powers waged war only because France tried to export revolution, Good heavens, were you born yesterday? Robespierre was dead, and the Reign of Terror at its end five years before Napoleon took power. The other powers waged war in order to preserve Divine Right. You’ll note that at the moment the French were defeated, a Bourbon was reinstated. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/58 "2011-11-25T03:22:33Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Have you ever been to either country? And while we are making comparisons and you mentioned India’s neighbors, México is far better off than Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Sr Lanka which were ruled by the British. In fact most Latin American countries all rank higher on the scale you linked to. > > To me it appears that the former British colonies that are the most advanced are the ones in which they basically eliminated or greatly reduced or marginalized the indigenous population. I have been to India (and Nepal, but that wasn’t a British colony, exactly, nor a model of human development). I haven’t been to Mexico. Unfortunately, we don’t have a good comparison for Spanish colonies in the area; the closest would be the Philippines, but that had a long American possession too. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Well, yeah, but that ain’t sayin’ much. 🙂 No, it’s not, but since we were comparing Spain’s New World possessions to Britain’s, they probably are the best parallel. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Of course the Enlightenment thinkers influeneced them, it should be noted though many of those thinkers admired the English system of governance. First, cite? Second, the American revolutionaries probably wouldn’t have minded Britain’s system of government if they had a chance to be a part of it. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/59 "2011-11-25T03:47:52Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > I have been to India (and Nepal, but that wasn’t a British colony, exactly, nor a model of human development). I haven’t been to Mexico. Unfortunately, we don’t have a good comparison for Spanish colonies in the area; the closest would be the Philippines, but that had a long American possession too. OK; lets go back and compare Belice to its neighbors and the rest of America. It ranks near the bottom of the index you linked to. Why would a former British colony be so far below most of its neighbors? ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750/60 "2011-11-25T03:56:28Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > OK; lets go back and compare Belice to its neighbors and the rest of America. It ranks near the bottom of the index you linked to. Why would a former British colony be so far below most of its neighbors? Huh? It’s above both Nicaragua and Guatemala, which was my point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-mexicos-revolution-less-successful-than-the-american-one/603750.md?page=4)