# Why Was Northern Ireland So Violent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654 "2010-08-09T01:13:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/61 "2010-08-10T15:21:04Z")
> [@villa](#): > > And yes, the censoring of voices was utter stupidity. But gave Chris Morris and Steve Coogan a bit to work with [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6UhXivPyw4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6UhXivPyw4)😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sablicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sablicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sablicious)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/62 "2010-08-10T15:34:04Z")
[quote=“Colibri, post:44, topic:549654”] > [@Sablicious](#): > > [Moderator Note] > > **Sablicious** , religious jabs are not permitted in GQ. No warning issued, but don’t do this again. > > **samclem** has already issued a reminder about this. Further posts of this kind may be subject to warnings. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator Reproach noted. At the risk of seeming obtuse, out of curiosity and for future reference, what part of what I posted was [interpreted as] the “jab”, if I may ask? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/63 "2010-08-10T15:35:14Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Yes, the deaths created martyrs, It made martyrs, significanly helped Sinn FĂ©in become the a political party with a large voting mandate and radicalised a huge amount of people on both sides of the border. I was 10 when it happened and remember most people (including a clueless me 🙂 ) wearing black armbands. When Sands died I remember people on the bridges of the grand canal waving black flags and shouting “Tiocfaidh ĂĄr lá” (Our day will come). The radicaising of the public was huge. It gave the 'RA more bolt holes and helped them operate with greater ease on both side of the border. I agree it was a hard call to make from a British perspective but the hard line taken didn’t help the people of NI one bit and in the long term with the realisation that Sinn FĂ©in could get representatives elected created a situation were the hardcore Republicans were in power rather than the likes of the SDLP. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/64 "2010-08-10T15:39:17Z")
I’m not doubting any of that. But what none of us know is what the result of capitulating to the hunger strikers would have been. As I noted earlier, I agree this should have been stopped before the hunger strike began, but again, I am not sure how that could have been done without returning to Special Status, and that should never have been granted in the first place and was rightfully removed. I don’t know what the ins and outs of British law as to where individuals must serve prison terms is, but I’d like to have seen them split up the terrorists more. ---
**Author:** ![DHMO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecc23a/32.png) [@DHMO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DHMO)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/65 "2010-08-10T20:15:14Z")
While many posters have touched on the beginnings of the violence in Northern Ireland, the history goes back to Colonial times. Here in the “The Colonies”, British rule was looked upon by many as tyrannical, and King George III was a lunatic (cf. [_The Madness of George III_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Madness_of_George_III).) Many of our citizens felt that overthrowing his rule, and substituting “self-rule” (democracy) would be preferrable. We fought, and won, a war of independence from the British Crown, which was, at the time, the lawful government of the thirteen colonies. A significant factor in our triumph were the “Minutemen”, patriots and heroes who fought an unconventional war at the time, using sniping and guerrilla tactics (watch Mel Gibson in “_Patriot_”). One man’s “Freedom Fighter” is another man’s “Terrorist.” For centuries, the Kings of England would grant a land boon to Nobles and other worthy members of the court. These “estates” were frequently in the land of Ireland, and the new “Lords of the Manor” would graciously allow the Irish, who had lived on and farmed the land for generations, to live as “tenants” on their own land and continue to farm it. Since England had long been Protestant (Anglican, mostly) and the indigenous Irish were predominantly Roman Catholic, the issues have been cast as one of different interpretations of religious doctrine. The issue, of course, had nothing to do with religion. An invading group had displaced families who had been living for centuries in peace on their own land, and created a populace with no rights, as only “landowners” were given any of the rights granted by the Crown. The people were understandably displeased, and sought to rectify the issue. Comes now King George III (read “_[The Declaration of Independence](http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/freedom/doi/text.html)_”, Thomas Jefferson, relevant quote: “The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations
”) who essentially told the Irish to “bugger off.” The Irish peasants resorted to armed conflict to win their rights, much as the Colonists across the pond did. We won our war. They lost theirs. We were fighting essentially the same war against the same tyrant at the same time. The British were able to send troops to Ireland much more easily than to the Colonies in America. The Irish resorted to more and more unconventional means to wage war, and engaged in many unsavory practices to fund the conflict. We might not have prevailed were it not for the finacial and military assistance of our allies, notably France. The Irish peasants did not have that luxury. Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland, to this day, do not have the basic rights which we, here in the United States, take for granted. When the vote for partitioning was held, many were disenfranchised, and had no say in the disposition of their ancestral homeland, and had to watch, helplessly, as foreign interlopers claimed homes and land which had been in native Irish families’ possession for centuries. Could any here say, honestly, that they would feel any different in similar circumstances? Not to say that the Irish are completely without fault. On the contrary, they have engaged in some of the most reprehensible actions. My point is only to put the conflict into some historical perspective, and to disabuse those who only see a religious dispute, particularly anyone who could write, > [@Sablicious](#): > > > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > > Why Was Northern Ireland So Violent > > Same reason most all other violence occurs or can be traced back to - religion. > > Some petty crap about the Queen/King being the closest to God verses the Pope being the closest to God discrepancy in their respective fictitious belief systems. :rolleyes: > > ‘_ **Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.** _’ -Albert Einstein. [minor nitpick] it’s “versus”, not verses, unless you’re waxing poetic. :dubious: [/mn] ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/66 "2010-08-10T20:37:43Z")
> [@DHMO](#): > > Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland, to this day, do not have the basic rights which we, here in the United States, take for granted. What basic rights do USians enjoy that Catholics in NI don’t? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/67 "2010-08-10T20:45:24Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > > [@DHMO](#): > > > > Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland, to this day, do not have the basic rights which we, here in the United States, take for granted. > > What basic rights do USians enjoy that Catholics in NI don’t? Clearly the right to be indoctrinated about the “Boys Behind the Wire” and the right to drop a few Budweiser soaked dollars into a collection bucket for NORAID to launch more “freedom fighter” missions such as the Warrington Bombings. ---
**Author:** ![Balor\_the\_Fomorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Balor\_the\_Fomorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balor_the_Fomorian)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/68 "2010-08-10T22:29:46Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@An\_Gadai](#): > > > > What basic rights do USians enjoy that Catholics in NI don’t? > > Clearly the right to be indoctrinated about the “Boys Behind the Wire” and the right to drop a few Budweiser soaked dollars into a collection bucket for NORAID to launch more “freedom fighter” missions such as the Warrington Bombings. Yes, the “freedom fighters”, who actually killed more Irish children under 18 than soldiers born on the island of Britain during their entire “war”. Most of the “British security forces” killed by the IRA were Irishmen, usually unarmed and off-duty. But the Republican histories don’t record that. For example, when they boast about killing Lord Mountbatten, they do not name the child who died with him. And the child who only survived because he was pulled unconscious from the water. The murderers saw two children going on board, and still pressed the button. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/69 "2010-08-10T23:36:06Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > What basic rights do USians enjoy that Catholics in NI don’t? Well, abortion without the whole “health of the mother” dodge. And Northern Ireland still has a blasphemy law on the books, and American defendants have more of a protection when it comes to defamation/libel/slander cases. But Protestants in Northern Ireland have the same rights limitations in those regards, and I don’t think that’s what he was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/70 "2010-08-10T23:46:34Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/71 "2010-08-10T23:47:43Z")
> [@DHMO](#): > > When the vote for partitioning was held, many were disenfranchised, and had no say in the disposition of their ancestral homeland, and had to watch, helplessly, as foreign interlopers claimed homes and land which had been in native Irish families’ possession for centuries. You realize that, by the time of partition, a lot of those “foreign interlopers” who made up the Protestant population of Northern Ireland had also had homes and lands that had been in their families’ possession for centuries? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/72 "2010-08-10T23:57:04Z")
It was pretty clever of the Brits to create a situation in which a significant portion of the population came to believe that they had the right to determine their sovereign status independent of the rest of the nation. They did the same thing in India, although I’m not sure that in the long run it isn’t a huge boon to bs split off from the social, political, and economic nightmare that is Pakistan. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/73 "2010-08-11T00:07:04Z")
I’m regretting saying any of that. Pretend I didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/74 "2010-08-11T00:14:27Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, abortion without the whole “health of the mother” dodge. And Northern Ireland still has a blasphemy law on the books, and American defendants have more of a protection when it comes to defamation/libel/slander cases. But Protestants in Northern Ireland have the same rights limitations in those regards, and I don’t think that’s what he was talking about. Since abortion is legal and readily accessible in other parts of the UK I bet plenty of NI people exercise that particular freedom, just elsewhere in the kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/75 "2010-08-11T00:20:08Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Since abortion is legal and readily accessible in other parts of the UK I bet plenty of NI people exercise that particular freedom, just elsewhere in the kingdom. Yeah, I’m sure. Puts a heavier burden on the poor who may not have the resources to as easily travel to those parts of the UK where abortion is easier, though. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/76 "2010-08-11T04:15:32Z")
“If only we were heathen so we could all live together like good Christians!” – Ancient Irish Joke ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/77 "2010-08-11T15:03:40Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > [@An\_Gadai](#): > > > > Since abortion is legal and readily accessible in other parts of the UK I bet plenty of NI people exercise that particular freedom, just elsewhere in the kingdom. > > Yeah, I’m sure. Puts a heavier burden on the poor who may not have the resources to as easily travel to those parts of the UK where abortion is easier, though. At least, to the best of my knowledge, the government has never tried to prosecute people for travelling from Ulster to the mainland UK to get an abortion. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/78 "2010-08-11T15:05:00Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > It was pretty clever of the Brits to create a situation in which a significant portion of the population came to believe that they had the right to determine their sovereign status independent of the rest of the nation. They did the same thing in India, although I’m not sure that in the long run it isn’t a huge boon to bs split off from the social, political, and economic nightmare that is Pakistan. Pretty much like those damn Croats and Slovenes. Should have just sucked it up and stayed good Yugoslavs. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/79 "2010-08-11T17:05:19Z")
I have a question. I read a few years ago a travel book and the author described his trip through Northern Ireland. He said in the big cities there were heavy security measures around government buildings. No cars were allowed to be parked on the streets. It sounded like a real war zone, and I was wondering if that’s still in effect today. Or, are things ‘normal’? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654/80 "2010-08-11T17:37:29Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > > Yeah, I’m sure. Puts a heavier burden on the poor who may not have the resources to as easily travel to those parts of the UK where abortion is easier, though. > > At least, to the best of my knowledge, the government has never tried to prosecute people for travelling from Ulster to the mainland UK to get an abortion. I believe that’s correct, yes. I would like **DHMO** to come back and explain in more detail what rights Catholics in the US have that Catholics in NI don’t, though, because I’m almost certain the abortion thing I pointed out is a red herring, although I do think that NI should change their abortion laws to be in conformity with the rest of the UK. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-northern-ireland-so-violent/549654.md?page=5)