It was like that years ago, when the IRA and their Loyalist colleagues were still murdering innocent people. The scene is normal now.
To be honest, the majorities of Belfast and Londonderry, the two cities I visited, were never warzones. It was never Beiruit. I’d assume that if you compare overall muder rates through the Troubles, Belfast was a significantly safer city than Detroit, for example, though I don’t have the numbers.
My grandpa was born in Northern Ireland so I have always had an interest in the Protestant side of the equation.
This is not to say I do not have sympathy for the Catholic side as well. The Orange parades through Catholic neighbourhoods, and the Ulster Defence Association and other loyalist groups are just as dirty as the IRA and other Nationalist paramilitary groups. The UDA and the IRA were both terrorist organizations. Neither side should be glorified, and neither side is without blame - both types of groups were responsible for hundreds of civilian deaths!
The British Military is not blameless either - their actions on Bloody Sunday were unequivocally wrong.
Nor is the government of Northern Ireland blameless - there were case where election districts were set up such that Catholic neighbourhoods were cut up between districts in such a way that a Catholic representative could not be elected to speak for Catholic citizens. Also under laws, non-traditional processions were outlawed, but in practice, only Catholic processions were banned - Orange men could still march. Additionally members of the Nationalist groups were more likely to be jailed under anti-terrorism laws than unionist groups.
There was legitimately reason for a civil rights movement among Catholics in Northern Ireland, but there is no reason for blanketing all Northern Irish protestants as prejudiced and as interlopers and oppressors.
Yet, it seems the majority of Americans are on the Catholic side of the argument regarding Northern Ireland. Both here in Canada & in the US, every St. Paddy’s day just about everyone claims some Irish origin but I would not be surprised to find out that many of the people who consider their origins to be Irish here in Canada and in the USA, are actually of Ulster Scot origin. Since my grandpa was a more recent immigrant, I’ve known my origins as Northern Irish Protestant for my entire life - but when origins are 4 or more generations back, things are forgotten.
Firstly, most Protestant families have been in Northern Ireland for hundreds of years as well - many families can trace their families in Ireland back as far as the early 1600.
Even if you go back to the 1600’s not every family of Scottish origin who was relocated to Ireland were wealthy land owners. Some were forcibly relocated to Ireland so that the British could take their Scottish lands, some were poorer families who were relocated along with their landlord in order to hold lands in Ireland. It is not as if the Ulster Scots were a monolithic entity of wealthy scots sent to oppress the Catholics. In certain times, the Scots in Ireland were considered to be as much trouble as the Catholics to the English - Presbyterians were also persecuted. That is why there are so many people of Scots-Irish origin in the USA and in Canada. The majority of immigrants from Ireland before the 1850’s during the potato famine were Protestant Irish of scottish origin, not Irish Catholics.
Then, you go forward to modern times, and even more of the Protestant population is just as poor as the Catholic population - it is not as if every protestant is a landowning tyrant breaking the backs of the Catholics today. Yet these protestants, consider themselves to every bit as Irish as the Catholics, despite others who wish to exclude them from the Irish identity due to a heritage that is hundreds of years in the past. As I said in a previous post, my grandfather was a poor protestant, but he considered himself Irish - yet who are those who want to deny him his cultural identity on the basis of his religion just because his ancestors came from Scotland sometime around 1600.
In the centuries between the initial scottish immigration to Ireland, and the modern era, there was intermarriage between Catholics and protestants as well. If you go through the 1901 and 1911 censuses of Northern Ireland you are just as likely to find a family with an Irish last name who is a protestant, and people with scottish last names who are listed as Catholic. I have found people with my families surname in the same regions my family lived, in Portadown, Armagh and Knockbreda, Belfast in both census who were Catholics! My great grandfather was listed as a Methodist, and married a Presperterian woman. People say intermarriage was rare between the Scots & Irish, but when you see people with scottish surnames listed as Catholic, and people with very traditional Irish names listed as Presperterian, you can see there was obviously some conversion and intermarriage despite the prejudices between communities.
Yet so many North Americans are unwilling to even consider that the protestants in Northern Ireland have any right to remain outside of the Republic of Ireland.
Historically the protestants did not want to be under Catholic rule, nor have laws influenced by Catholicism. Being the majority population of Ulster, they chose to remain part of the UK instead of being a part of Ireland.
On top of that, the history of Northern Ireland, including its violence, has lead to a unique culture.
I don’t see the situation in Northern Ireland being too different from India and Pakistan, or I venture to say Israel and Palestine - yet very few people want to unite those nations!
Just an aside, why do many people who support the Catholic side of the Northern Ireland question, also support Israel? Strangely enough Israelis have been in Palestine for less time than the Scots in Northern Ireland, and have oppressed the Palestinians on a level as great or more than the Protestants did Catholics in Northern Ireland - yet the recent usurpers in the Middle East are permitted far more allowance and far more violent mistakes in the name of security than the British and the Northern Irish were allowed in defending against their own terrorists?
Back to the OP and the question, of why was Northern Ireland so violent, I’d say my answer is that much of the violence could have not occurred if not for funding of Nationalist groups such as the IRA from people in the US, Canada, and Republic of Ireland, no more than terrorism in Israel could occur without funding to Palestinian groups by Islamic sympathizers. I think because the nationalist Republican groups had financial support, they could wage campaigns of greater scale where as if they did not have financial support - it would have been more like the riots and lynchings of the US black & white divide.
The problem for the Catholic Irish is that they simply refuse to see that over centuries, they got themselves involved in disputes that were not theirs.
Ireland was frequently the object of overtures from France and Spain, partly at the behest of the Popes to overthrow the Protestant nation in England. Ireland was encouraged to provide the manpower for revolution.
With such a potential reserve of manpower, there was simply no way that Britain was likely to countenance a seperate and credible Irish government so near, that could become a base for a hostile power.
The British fought two world wars against the French and one against the Spanish, nowadays we think of WW1 and WWII as world wars, folk should read their history more.
The Irish have often been badly led, promised so much from unworthy allies against an implacable opponen that did what it had to do just to maintain its own existance.
This is what led to the Scots planters, its what led to lands being given over to Protestant aristocracy.
When you look at the murders torutres and abuses of Catholic institutions, Britihs Protestants knew what they were in for had they failed to hold back the Popish plots, and throughout it all, the threat of an Irish power base simply had to be removed.
British, European and Catholic history has been especially bloody, the Irish look at the small picture, when viewed through a wider lens things take n a differant view, and this is the baggage that landed on the 20th Century and fed the more recent injustices on all sides.
I don’t know if that’s true, but it may well be with your careful exclusion of British security forces born on Éire (quotes not needed).
I put it to Republican incompetence more than malice or uncaring. I’ve said before, one of the pervasive threads of Irish nationalist history is that their planning and organization were typically pretty bad. Most of their victories and advances were handed to them by British government blunders.
The IRA actually turned down a few opportunities to acquire heavier weapons of war. They were part of the civil society, such as it was, at least when not on “operations.” Nobody who lived there, on either side, was interested in making a real war zone and really destroying that society.
The same, it must be said, was true for most of the Loyalists as well. There was even at least one instance of IRA/Loyalist cooperation in the execution of a Loyalist murderer who was perceived to have crossed a line of acceptable aggression.
That may well be the case in North America, but in Ireland in Catholic/Republican areas Palestinian flags fly prominently in solidarity, whereas it is not that uncommon to see an Israeli flag flying in a loyalist area. A couple of weeks ago I was in Belfast and saw an Israeli flag emblazoned with a swastika hanging from the Divis flats.
There is still more security around Government buildings in NI than in the Republic but nowadays things are way more relaxed. Up until the 1990’s High Streets and town centres of many towns and cities in Northern Ireland were blocked from traffic in the evening, big yellow barriers were a common sight. Nowadays the closest thing to this situation are the peace lines that still exist at interfaces between the two communities. These are typically closed at night time or during times of heightened tension.
Very interesting - I think support for Israel and support for Republican causes is a USA & Canada phenomenon alone because of the distance in generations from their Irish ancestors & lack of understand of the history of the conflict in Northern Ireland. Among some people I have met, it seems they throw verbally their support to the Nationalist/Catholic side only because their great-great++ grandfather was Irish and they know there was some sort of potato famine. I have never met anyone who has given money to the cause though - perhaps those who are engaged enough to want to donate or fundraise for the Republican cause have more of a connection to Ireland and more knowledge.
Do they typically also support Basque independence?
I know there is always trouble in the European far right movement as groups like the BNP and National Front have tended to be very pro-Loyalist, and were always surprised to discover their European Neo-Nazi brethren were on the other side of the fence and were pro-Northern Irish Nationalists.
And when you combine skinheads, alcohol, and surprise, you end up with them kicking seven shades of shit out of each other. Which is a good thing.
Yes, for example see this mural. They support Catalunya too. Here’s a Palestine one too.
An Gadaí - out of curiosity, what is the current state (post 1998) of the rights of Catholics in Northern Ireland? Are there still issues beyond common prejudice of the citizens that needs to be addressed for both the Catholics and the Protestants (such as civil rights), or is the remaining sentiment about a United Ireland just nationalism?
I dislike the religious names, as it causes misunderstanding among foreigners about the problems of Northern Ireland. Please read them as emblems of ethnicity only.
Today the legal rights of Roman Catholics are the same as those of Protestants. There are strict anti-discrimination laws in place, so that institutionalised bigotry of the past is no longer a factor. And of course Catholic politicians are in government in the local administration. So things have moved on massively.
However, like civil rights legislation in the USA, law can’t touch deep prejudices. There remain divisions between some people in each community. These will not vanish easily, so long as there there are vicious thugs trying to aggravate them for their own gain. Splinter groups of “Republicans” and “Loyalists” still try to inflame the old hatreds which still bubble in many people.
I’ll provide the caveat that I’m not from Northern Ireland (although my family is) but it seems to me the main issues since 1998 has been police reform, marching routes and the political system itself, the powersharing executive. The RUC (Royal Ulster Constabulary) was a traditionally predominantly Protestant force so the new PSNI (Police Service of Northern Ireland) has made attempts at providing better representation of the populace. The routes of a number of Orange Marches have been extremely divisive, and of course it has been difficult for previously vociferous enemies to work together and achieve common goals in the powersharing arrangement there in education, the economy, etc.
Of late there has been a resurgence in dissident Republican terrorist activities, several murders, bombings. Although there doesn’t seem to be a risk of things sliding back to the bad old days, these bands do pose a threat to life and property.
Getting more into IMHO territory here, the Celtic Tiger boom I think made the Republic of Ireland a more desirable partner for NI than it had ever hitherto been and it is interesting that significant rapproachment occurred in the period when the Republic was booming. Business people of all political hues in Northern Ireland wanted a piece of the pie.
As for NI, I don’t really have much respect for ardent republicans. I think they have a somewhat childish cake and eat it MO. They don’t seem to appreciate the myriad benefits the political and economic union with Britain affords them. As I told my Northern cousins only recently, NI isn’t a cheap date. The Republic couldn’t yet afford a United Ireland, unless it is brought in long term increments.
I should also have said that the aspiration for a united ireland remains among Northern Ireland Catholics and among a large proportion of people in the Republic. However it’s worth noting how attitudes in the Republic are changing.
At the last election, a survey of voters in the Republic said that unity with Northern Ireland was the least important of 30 listed political objectives. Few were willing to pay substantially more tax to achieve it. For most of them, it’s an aspiration, like losing weight or getting more exercise. Remember that the two parts of Ireland have been separate for nearly a century.
I don’t feel like I can talk politics with my second cousins back in Northern Ireland - so this is great for me - thank you. I’ve only been in contact with them in the past couple years and as you know politics is not a polite topic. Most of what I know is from research and family anecdotes.
I always assume so much - I’d probably guess that most people - Catholic and Protestant are neither Republican nor Unionist and faith is no longer such a black & white thing - there are plenty of Atheists, Mormons, Unitarians and those of other faiths in both camps politically.
I assumed so much, and I am glad to hear institutionalized prejudice is no longer in place.
Both of these, I assumed - people don’t change their prejudices easily.
This is something that the North American descendants of Irish descent need to know.
The funny thing is here in North America it seems the “Irish” (albeit 3 or more generations away from Ireland) seem to be fanatical about a united Ireland. There’s a joke that North American Irish descendants consider themselves more Irish than the Irish - and I believe it! Many times where speaking to other North Americans who are of Irish ancestry, I have given up because they can’t even consider that there are two sides of the story in Northern Ireland, and it is those people who have told me that because my grandfather was a protestant, he was not really Irish. Some of these people have ancestors of non-Irish decent as well. One girl I talked with was 1/8th Irish - her father was of eastern European origin as well as having Italian ancestors as well! My Irish ancestor came here in 1928, and hers came here in the 1850’s - yet she told me my grandfather was not Irish. I’ve read the term “Plastic Paddy” in references to North Americans like her – and she is not the only one who deserves that label.
Unlike them, I don’t consider myself Irish though, I am a Canadian who had an Irish grandfather, I find my Irish ancestry interesting as I find my Scottish, Dutch, Hungarian and Romanian ancestry - of which members of my family have been in the USA or Canada since the 1700’s.