# Why was Red #4 banned (E125) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 20, 2019, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-red-4-banned-e125/835791 "2019-06-20T07:25:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-red-4-banned-e125/835791/1 "2019-06-20T07:25:57Z")
Red #4 is not permitted in foods. It was banned a long time ago. Just curious, what did it do? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-red-4-banned-e125/835791/2 "2019-06-20T07:41:14Z")
Here is a news article from when it was banned: > **[F.D.I. Bans Use of Red No. 4 Dye And Carbon Black in Food Items (Published 1976)](https://www.nytimes.com/1976/09/23/archives/fdi-bans-use-of-red-no-4-dye-and-carbon-black-in-food-items.html)** > > FDA, which recently banned Red Dye No 2, says it plans some orders on 82 more color additives (S) This is the reason given for the ban: > [@](#): > > The Food and Drug Administration said the safety of the two dyes was questionable. The one called Red. No. 4 may cause urinary bladder polyps and atrophy of the adrenal glands, it said. And for the color carbon black, there is no reliable testing method to assure that it does not contain a cancer‐causing byproduct, the F.D.A. said. ---
**Author:** ![2Bits](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e95f7d/32.png) [@2Bits](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2Bits)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-red-4-banned-e125/835791/3 "2019-06-20T13:02:41Z")
Just want to mention that a red dye still commonly used in U.S. is banned in a few European countries. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-red-4-banned-e125/835791/4 "2019-06-20T15:55:03Z")
"May cause. . . " It would have been nice if that article had included a little background on what led them to that concern. Presumably lab rats or something, but who knows. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-red-4-banned-e125/835791/5 "2019-06-20T16:02:48Z")
If it was banned without an announcement, then it was probably a previously banned dye that returned with a new name. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-red-4-banned-e125/835791/6 "2019-06-20T16:19:40Z")
Yes, lab rats - but also dogs (this was in the 1960s, not sure use of dogs would be approved today.) Here’s an older toxicology monograph on Red No. 4 (also known as “Ponceau SX”) > [@](#): > > Additional experiments, using groups of 200, 100 and 100 Osborne- > Mendel rats of both sexes and 200, 100 and 100 Sprague-Dawley rats of > both sexes fed a diet containing 0, 10 000 or 20 000 mg ponceau SX per > kg of diet, resulted in tumour incidences of 67/171 (39%), 23/89 (26%) > and 32/89 (36%) in Osborne-Mendel rats and 38/147 (26%), 16/83 (19%) > and 14/74 (19%) in Sprague-Dawley rats in the respective groups (the > numbers of animals given are those examined for pathology). Survival > rates at 80 weeks were 79, 75 and 78%, respectively, in Osborne-Mendel > rats and 61, 66 and 54%, respectively, in Sprague-Dawley rats (Davis > et al., 1966). > [@](#): > > Commercial ponceau SX was fed at a level of 0, 10 000 and > 20 000 ppm in the diet to five female beagle dogs (age six months) for > up to seven years; three dogs died at six, nine-and-one-half and 64 > months of treatment. A second group of five females received ponceau > SX at a level of 10 000 mg/kg of diet for seven years, while nine > females served as controls. Two (20 000 ppm), five (10 000 ppm) and > nine (control) dogs, respectively, survived the seven years of > treatment. There was no apparent effect on weight gain during the > first six months or any change on haematological parameters examined > at any time during the duration of the experiment. Haemorrhagic > streaks and/or projections in the urinary bladder of all test animals > surviving more than six months were found. From: [Summary of Toxicological Data of Certain Food Additives: Ponceau SX](http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v12je17.htm) The dosages are high (unlikely that people would ingest 20g/kg of dye) but the point is made in the differences of tumor incidence between the controls and experimental groups. I’m not sure why they even did the dog study, a sample size of five in the experimental group and nine in the control seems just about useless to me. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-red-4-banned-e125/835791/7 "2019-06-20T16:26:58Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > (this was in the 1960s, not sure use of dogs would be approved today.) Oops - missed the edit window - the 1970s ---
**Author:** ![szabrocki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@szabrocki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/szabrocki)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-red-4-banned-e125/835791/8 "2019-06-20T19:21:49Z")
I thought it was red dye #3 in the 60’s. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-red-4-banned-e125/835791/9 "2019-06-20T19:32:11Z")
Am I the only one who wondered why I hadn’t noticed Red #4 post much around here before he was banned? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-red-4-banned-e125/835791/10 "2019-06-20T19:35:56Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Am I the only one who wondered why I hadn’t noticed Red #4 post much around here before he was banned? Nope. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-red-4-banned-e125/835791/11 "2019-06-20T19:49:24Z")
> [@szabrocki](#): > > I thought it was red dye #3 in the 60’s. [FD&C Red No. 3 (erythrosine)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythrosine) was partially banned in the U.S. in 1990, but it’s apparently still allowed for use in some applicaitons. You may also be thinking of the more infamous [FD&C Red No. 2 (amaranth)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaranth_(dye)), which was completely banned in the U.S. in 1976, the same year that Red No. 4 was banned for use in foods. ---
**Author:** ![szabrocki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@szabrocki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/szabrocki)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-red-4-banned-e125/835791/12 "2019-06-20T20:01:05Z")
I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-red-4-banned-e125/835791/13 "2019-06-21T01:13:19Z")
I remember when Red #4 was banned. Weekend Update on SNL did a short story on it. Played it completely straight as a news item, explaining that it was banned as a cancérogène. Then the next news item: “Ronald Reagan has been admitted to hospital suffering from cancer of the hair .”