# Why was the musical "Oklahoma" so revolutionary? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 11, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855 "2003-10-11T16:38:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/1 "2003-10-11T16:38:55Z")
I just saw “Oklahoma”–(well, okay–it was a local amatuer production by volunteers–but it was a lot of fun!). Then I happened to catch on TV a movie version of the Broadway show (1960-ish?). I know that when it first appeared on Broadway, Oklahoma was considered revolutionary for its choreography, and maybe for other reasons to. But to me, it looks a lot like other musicals. What was so revolutionary about it? Why was it considered to be such a classic? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/2 "2003-10-11T16:49:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chappachula \* > **But to me, it looks a lot like other musicals. What was so revolutionary about it?** Take a look at the “musicals” that came before it. The musicals that _Oklahoma!_ looks a lot like, are all musicals that came **afterward.** ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/3 "2003-10-11T17:06:50Z")
What a coincidence–I am just now reading [a biography of Joan McCracken](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1555535739/qid%3D1065892394/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/102-8030281-0983305), the lead dancer in _Oklahoma!_ It was indeed Agnes De Mille’s choreography, and the fact that the dance (new “American ballet and folk,” not traditional show dancing) was used to show the characters’ dreams, feelings and decisions. She also used professional dancers–mostly ballet–rather than “actors who dance” or chorines. It was the seamless blending of character-driven _plot-furthering_ song and dance into the show that was fairly revolutionary. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/4 "2003-10-11T17:56:51Z")
As opposed to what? Songs that had nothing to do with the plot? ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/5 "2003-10-11T18:22:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Speaker for the Dead \* > \*\*As opposed to what? Songs that had nothing to do with the plot? \*\* Well, yeah. A good many B’way shows had songs interpolated; they were appropriate, but didn’t really _further_ the plot. It was also the dancing as much as the score, and the fact that there was no “reason” for the characters to burst into song & dance (they were cowboys and farmers, not show folk or Park Avenue playboys). I’d be willing to bet that _Oklahoma!_ was not the first show to do this, by the way–it was probably just the first _successful_ show to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Julius\_Henry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@Julius\_Henry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Julius_Henry)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/6 "2003-10-11T19:48:00Z")
_Oklahoma!_ was not the first show nor the first successful show to use songs that advanced the plot. Before they got together, Oscar Hammerstein wrote (along with Jerome Kern) _Showboat_, and Richard Rodgers wrote (along with Lorenzo Hart) _Pal Joey_. They best I’ve been able to figure out is that _Oklahama!_ was the first to use a dream ballet. And to end the title with an exclamation mark. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/7 "2003-10-11T20:48:17Z")
Fine. You people hash it out, then. I don’t even _like_ Agnes De Mille. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/8 "2003-10-11T21:11:19Z")
But **Eve** , she always speaks so highly of you… FWIW, the blurb for _Beautiful Mornin’: The Broadway Musical in the 1940s_ by Ethan Mordden (in which Mr Mordden waxes rhapsodic at length about _Oklahoma!_ and some other 40s musicals) says in relevant part: > [@](#): > > …_Oklahoma!_ and _Carousel_ came along just in time to announce the New Formula for Writing Musicals: Don’t have a formula. Instead, start with strong characters and atmosphere: _Oklahoma!_'s murderous romantic triangle set against a frontier society that has to learn what democracy is in order to deserve it; or _Carousel_’s dysfunctional family seen in the context of class and gender war. Um, the book’s actually more of a fun read than the jacket makes it out to be, I promise. It is a bit dense for the casual reader-about-Broadway (like me for instance; I bought it and its companion books about the 20s and 50s because I’m a huge fan of Mordden’s fiction) but I did enjoy it and learned a few things. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/9 "2003-10-11T21:37:46Z")
One of the books I read on the development of popular music had it that until the Rodgers and Hammerstein shows, the focus had been on New York and Broadway. The New England of Carousel and the Oklahoma setting were the first to indicate that there is more to the USA than the island of Manhattan. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nanook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/10 "2003-10-11T23:13:38Z")
Many elements of Oklahoma! had been familiar to audiences before the show came along: —The story and characters were credible and real, with dark psychological overtones. But Rodgers and Hart’s Pal Joey, which came earlier, did, too. —The dream ballet was exceedingly Freudian in content but audiences had been exposed to darker elements in dance in pieces like Slaughter on Tenth Avenue from Rodgers and Hart’s (again!) On Your Toes, staged by Balanchine. —The music had an elevated, almost operetta-like quality which audiences had been accustomed to for decades. —The songs naturally arose from the situation and were played as an extension of the drama, not just as “turns” for the performers, but some of the earlier musicals mentioned above did that to some extent, too. —Yet the show also didn’t shortchange audiences on the comedy bits (Ado Annie as a farmer’s daughter, for example) that had been the subject of countless vaudeville and musical comedy routines for years. —The setting was recognizably American from many plays set in the American heartland. BUT… It was the combination of all these elements that made the difference—the high-flown romantic sweep of the music in a native setting, sung by characters with dark psyches and ulterior motives, contrasted by the sex jokes of the comic carnal couple, dancing choreography of a singular, eccentric sensibility. In other words, it was the same, only different—not so radical as to alienate audiences yet not so cliched as to bore them. This doesn’t even begin to take into consideration the high quality of the writing and direction or the nationalistic, identity-affirming theme of the show, produced at the height of World War II. In short, it was considered the summation and apex of the musical comedy genre up to that time. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/11 "2003-10-11T23:21:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Speaker for the Dead \* > \*\*As opposed to what? Songs that had nothing to do with the plot? \*\* Pretty much. If you watch older musicals, the songs were sort of vaguely related to the plot. But not really. Anyone could have sung them at any time, and they were often used in different musicals because they fit just as well to any number of characters. They were “love song sung by an ingenue” rather than a song about a specific character in a specific play used to advance the character or the plot. It was a change in trends for musical comedy. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/12 "2003-10-11T23:34:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by amarinth \* > \*\*Pretty much. > > If you watch older musicals, the songs were sort of vaguely related to the plot. But not really. Anyone could have sung them at any time, and they were often used in different musicals because they fit just as well to any number of characters. They were “love song sung by an ingenue” rather than a song about a specific character in a specific play used to advance the character or the plot. > > It was a change in trends for musical comedy. \*\* On stage in New York, maybe, but in MOVIE musicals, songs and story had been seamlessly integrated for some time before “Oklahoma!” premiered. And people like Gilbert and Sullivan had accomplished that before film was invented! ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/13 "2003-10-12T00:12:15Z")
> [@](#): > > _astorian_ > And people like Gilbert and Sullivan had accomplished that before film was invented! Those were operettas. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/14 "2003-10-12T04:07:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astorian \* > \*\*On stage in New York, maybe, but in MOVIE musicals, songs and story had been seamlessly integrated for some time before “Oklahoma!” premiered. \*\* While true for some movies, not true for others. E.g., in Singing in the Rain the title song had nothing to do with plot. In fact, it was used in a previous movie musical, and again, had nothing to do with plot. Cole Porter songs are well known (notorious?) for being used in various musicals (stage and screen) in various settings with no significant relation to plot. Now, that being said, it’s not a hard and fast rule that the songs of Oklahoma! are all plot songs. After all, _Oh, What a Beautiful Morning_ is not a plot song, but a mood song, it can stand very well on its own. ## Peace. “I’m just a poster who can’t say ‘no.’” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/15 "2003-10-12T20:18:31Z")
Posted by **pizzabrat:** > [@](#): > > Those were operettas. Operetta? Dat ain’t a song, dat’s a dame who woiks for da phone company! ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/16 "2003-10-12T23:09:21Z")
> [@](#): > > …_Oklahoma!_ and _Carousel_ came along just in time to announce the New Formula for Writing Musicals: Don’t have a formula. The thing I liked best about Carousel was how everybody exploded when they got near the top. Of course, that Runner just _had_ to try and make his break-for-it during Carousel and spoiled everything. We never did get to see the end. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nanook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/17 "2003-10-12T23:48:14Z")
Did someone forget to take their medication today? ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/18 "2003-10-13T02:15:11Z")
Methinks someone’s flashing on [Logan’s Run](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074812/)! ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/19 "2003-10-13T03:08:13Z")
IIRC, it was Rodgers & Hammerstein’s first collaboration and is certainly notable for that. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/20 "2003-10-13T03:15:30Z")
What’s the technical difference between an operetta and a musical? I used to have a very old encyclopedia that held up Oklahoma! as an example of the former, but now it’s considered the latter. Where’s the stylistic line? Is there a spoken word/sung word ratio or something? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855.md?page=2)