# Why was the musical "Oklahoma" so revolutionary? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 11, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855 "2003-10-11T16:38:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/41 "2003-10-18T02:25:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kizarvexius \* > **Gilbert & Sullivan’s _Trial by Jury_ has no spoken dialogue and is still not classified as an "opera."** I beg to differ! Last I heard, **all** of Gilber & Sullivan’s productions were called “operas”. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nanook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/42 "2003-10-18T02:29:27Z")
They’re not. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/43 "2003-10-18T03:03:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Number Six \* > **Pointing out the dates the films were released certainly is relevant if one is attempting to establish which movie first had a dream ballet. Which is what I was doing. That’s a point you keep missing.** Except you are the only one trying to establish which movie first had a dream ballet. Everyone else is talking about the stage act. That’s a point **you** keep missing. Everyone in the thread is talking about the stage production. The OP is talking about why the **stage production** was so revolutionary. The only time movies were brought in was to argue that some movie musicals had used some of the techniques before the **stage production** of _Oklahoma!_ premier, so the **stage production** wasn’t as revolutionary as some were arguing. In short, no one cares about the movie _Oklahoma!_ right now. So pointing out that the movie _Oklahoma!_ wasn’t the first to do something is completely and totally irrelevent as to why the **stage production** was considered revolutionary. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/44 "2003-10-18T03:04:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Krokodil \* > \*\*A “pure” opera has no spoken words at all (although some Offenbach works have a little bit). Or was that one of the overturned rules? \*\* It’s been overturned since at least 1792. Unless Mozart’s _The Magic Flute_ isn’t considered to be a real opera. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/45 "2003-10-18T05:03:10Z")
I’m well aware that the subject of the thread is the effect of _Oklahoma!_ on subsequent stage musicals. I was not addressing that particular subject, but a related subject–movie musicals. Other posters in this thread have been writing about subjects related to, but distinct from, the subject in the OP. I hardly think this is the first thread in which this has happened. In reply to a post claiming that _Oklahoma!_ was the first stage musical with a dream ballet (a claim I did not and do not dispute), I wrote a post intended to indicate that as far as movie musicals go, other movies beat the movie version of _Oklahoma!_ to the punch. I was correct in that assertion. I at no time made any comparison to the stage play; it’s others who insist on doing that. I have in subsequent posts made it quite clear that I was talking about was movie musicals. It’s as if I said “Alan Shepherd was the first American in space” and someone replied “The Russians put Yuri Gagarin into space before Shepherd.” While the second statement is true, it isn’t in conlflict with the first. > [@](#): > > Except you are the only one trying to establish which movie first had a dream ballet. Everyone else is talking about the stage act. That’s a point you keep missing. Really? Nobody else has been discussing things other than the stage play _Oklahoma_? There isn’t a running discussion of how to define the works of Gilbert and Sullivan, or how to differentiate an operetta from an opera? If there is some new rule that one must address the subject in the OP directly and must not discuss anything else, I’m hardly the only one in this thread who’s violated it. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/46 "2003-10-18T05:09:01Z")
Scott: Well said. I shall defer to your greater expertise and concede the point. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nanook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/47 "2003-10-18T07:30:33Z")
Madre de Dio… ---
**Author:** ![the\_Scarlet\_Pimpernel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f1d935/32.png) [@the\_Scarlet\_Pimpernel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_Scarlet_Pimpernel)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/48 "2003-10-18T09:45:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kizarvexius \* > \*\*The Metopolitian Opera will perform “Die Fledermaus”, for example, but will not touch “Pirates of Penzance”. \*\* What, nevah? Yes, I’m aware that’s _Pinafore_… ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/49 "2003-10-18T13:25:58Z")
It occurs to me that further discussion of this particular subject is likely to get us nowhere and do nothing but waste our time, so I’ll stop and allow whoever wants it to have the last word. > [@](#): > > What, nevah? Hahdly evah. ---
**Author:** ![Foolonthehill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Foolonthehill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foolonthehill)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/50 "2003-10-18T15:08:35Z")
“Poor Jud is dead.” ---
**Author:** ![rmbnxs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9e5f3/32.png) [@rmbnxs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rmbnxs)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855/51 "2003-10-18T18:48:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Why was the musical “Oklahoma” so revolutionary? Previously, nobody thought it was possible to make a musical about a dust-bowl state. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-musical-oklahoma-so-revolutionary/206855.md?page=2)