# Why Was The Nazi Leadership So Mediocre? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 11, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103 "2013-12-11T21:13:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/21 "2013-12-12T07:41:35Z")
I know you don’t want to be an apologist but do you really think your versions of those resumes are that impressive? Being skilled in shaking to the top of your crazy,violent and nationalist political party doesn’t equal good leadership. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/22 "2013-12-12T07:55:53Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I know you don’t want to be an apologist but do you really think your versions of those resumes are that impressive? Being skilled in shaking to the top of your crazy,violent and nationalist political party doesn’t equal good leadership. If the Nazi party had remained at a couple hundred members, you’d have a valid point. But the Nazi party had 1,600,000 members by 1933 when they took power - and people like Goebbels, Goering, and Himmler had risen up to the top of the party. They were not some amateurs who just got handed power. They were skilled and experienced politicians who took over a country. They may have been crazy violent nationalists but unfortunately they weren’t incompetents. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/23 "2013-12-12T07:59:06Z")
Hess may have been the least intelligent among them but he outlived them all. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/24 "2013-12-12T08:09:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If the Nazi party had remained at a couple hundred members, you’d have a valid point. But the Nazi party had 1,600,000 members by 1933 when they took power - and people like Goebbels, Goering, and Himmler had risen up to the top of the party. They were not some amateurs who just got handed power. They were skilled and experienced politicians who took over a country. They may have been crazy violent nationalists but unfortunately they weren’t incompetents. Maybe if they had stuck to German politics. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/25 "2013-12-12T08:13:26Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Oh for Pete’s sake. You don’t think being buddies during a failed coup attempt, knifing your temporary allies after a win and running targetted racist riots is a little different than a standard cronyism? That has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I was replying to **John Bredin** ’s claim that they were incompetent due to the fact that they held their positions due to cronyism. I was disputing both that they were unusually incompetent, as government leaders go, and that they were particularly unusually given to cronyism. No-one, certainly not me, is disputing the fact that they were a particularly nasty bunch, and did some very nasty things during their rise to power, as well as after obtaining it, but that is a whole different issue. The nicest, most moral and well-meaning guys can be incompetent, and are quite likely to be given to cronyism too. Also, please do not cut me off in mid-word when you quote me, making me look illiterate. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/26 "2013-12-12T08:19:01Z")
These guys made most of Europe, including some old, powerful and famous states their slaves. It took the combined forces of the most powerful nations on earth 4 years to defeat them. They were many things, incompetent is not one of them. If they were, they would have been like one of the many other myriad groups going around in post war Germany, extinct in the mid 20’s. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/27 "2013-12-13T18:25:52Z")
> [@Cerealbox](#): > > I dunno, but it seems like he managed to conquer quite a bit of Europe before the war finally started shifting into the Allies favor. And that fellow Himmler, IIRC, he got his people whipped into line something dandy. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/28 "2013-12-13T18:42:21Z")
And don’t forget Hitler, himself. A skilled painter, if ever there was one. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/29 "2013-12-13T18:59:41Z")
The Nazi top leadership’s strength was in gaining power and establishing their ideology, not running a country (or a war effort). Consider **[Kolberg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolberg_(film))**, where Goebbels spent eight million marks and divertered thousands of troops when the war was going badly for Germany in order to make a movie. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/30 "2013-12-13T19:21:02Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The Nazi top leadership’s strength was in gaining power and establishing their ideology, not running a country (or a war effort). This. They basically inherited a very efficient, well oiled war machine and drove it hard until the engine fell out. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/31 "2013-12-13T20:09:21Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > This. They basically inherited a very efficient, well oiled war machine and drove it hard until the engine fell out. Did they? I thought the German military was largely dismantled after WWI. It was beginning to be re-established by the Nazis gained power, but most of the rearmament happened under Nazi control. When they came to power, furthermore, Germany was still mired in the Great Depression. It pulled out of the Depression, and built up its military, under the Nazis. It may well be that the economic recovery would have happened anyway, but many people (not just in Germany) gave the Nazis the credit at the time. It is true that Germany already had a very strong military tradition, but the actual war machine, and, in some respects, the economy that sustained it, was largely a Nazi creation. > [@RealityChuck](#): > > The Nazi top leadership’s strength was in gaining power and establishing their ideology, not running a country (or a war effort). Sure, but how many governments is that _not_ true of? It is almost tautologically the case, in any political system (hereditary monarchies aside, maybe) that the people in power will be the ones best at gaining and holding on to power. If they happen to have administrative competence too, that is just good luck. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/32 "2013-12-13T21:16:21Z")
The German military had a long tradition of excellence that carried over into Nazi rule. Sure, the Nazi were in charge of the government but they didn’t purge the military and the long standing leaders, traditions, training programs, weapon designs, building programs, all that stuff, were still intact. The Nazis funneled more money into the army and defied agreements from WWI that allowed the military to build up but it’s not like Hitler was designing tanks or planes or detailing the structure of the army. I’m sure the military leaders of the day thought, “finally, someone who will give us the money we need to protect our country and who will unshackle us from those awful amistice restrictions.” That Hitler did. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/33 "2013-12-14T01:03:36Z")
I’ve said before that the key factor in the outcome of WWII is this: every time the Russians lost a battle, it made Stalin more willing to listen to his generals next time. But every time the Germans lost a battle, it made Hitler less willing to listen to his generals next time. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/34 "2013-12-14T01:14:53Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Did they? I thought the German military was largely dismantled after WWI. It wasn’t – just strictly limited in size. The Germans got around this by only training an officer corps: a private in the Weimar Army was trained and treated as a second lieutenant. When the restrictions were ended, they only had to recruit privates and NCOs, who could be trained easily. Thus they had an entire army the consisted of the equivalent of West Point graduates. Just add cannon fodder and you could rearm quickly. This was done before the Nazis were anything more than a small group of cranks. ---
**Author:** ![sjc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@sjc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjc)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/35 "2013-12-14T02:58:07Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Did they? I thought the German military was largely dismantled after WWI. It was beginning to be re-established by the Nazis gained power, but most of the rearmament happened under Nazi control. When they came to power, furthermore, Germany was still mired in the Great Depression. It pulled out of the Depression, and built up its military, under the Nazis. It may well be that the economic recovery would have happened anyway, but many people (not just in Germany) gave the Nazis the credit at the time. > > It is true that Germany already had a very strong military tradition, but the actual war machine, and, in some respects, the economy that sustained it, was largely a Nazi creation. Both the war machine and the recovery from the Great Depression were founded on pre-Nazi Wiemar actions. The Nazis inherited the framework for economic recovery and a strong military–though I believe both were in their nascent stages. In terms of the military, they had been building themselves up surreptitiously in the interwar years as RealityChuck points out. Indeed, by the time of the Nazi seizure of power they were probably the only group in Germany that could have effectively opposed the Nazis. That they didn’t is probably because the Hitler’s stated foreign policy aims (and general right-wingedness) lined up pretty well with theirs (and they thought they could control him). ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/36 "2013-12-14T03:36:37Z")
Something I observed in my Silicon Valley career is that the personality and behavior of top management tends to trickle down to lower management. Different companies had distinct managerial styles and personalities that tended to mimic that of a top man (usually the CEO). I’m not sure why. People tend to hire or promote people who resemble them? People tend to imitate their superiors, or follow a company code? I don’t know, but the effect was strong enough that even I – usually the semi-autistic guy in a corner oblivious to office politics – noticed it. One sees this to an extent in recent U.S. administrations where top appointments sometimes have incompetencies similar to those of the President. Hitler was a combination of brilliance and blunder. It’s no surprise his top appointments were also. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/37 "2013-12-14T21:03:50Z")
> [@Cerealbox](#): > > Like I said, I don’t know much about history. But I saw a map of Europe before the tide started turning and Europe was pretty filled with the Axis. I can’t imagine they were really that incompetent. I don’t think I could capture that much of Europe, but then again I’ve never really tried. And I don’t think that because many of the Nazis didn’t have military qualifications that really is much of an argument for anything. The Allies just subjectively seem like they were some pretty sophisticated military people in their own right, so the fact that they ultimately won the war isn’t shocking to me. I just wish to state my skepticism about the premise of the thread that Nazis really were “so mediocre.” The Nazi’s were a political party, that (through a coup) controlled the government of Germany. However, the Nazi’s were still only the “elite” in the government; there were still thousands of apolitical civil servants who came to work day in and day out that kept the German government functioning. The military leadership were among these bureaucrats. They may have had to take a nominal oath to the Nazi party, but they weren’t core members. They waged a conventional war against Europe, and were quite successful at it initially. As others said, once the Nazi officials started micromanaging the war, their incompetence began to show. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/38 "2013-12-14T22:51:49Z")
Of the people mentioned in the OP, I would consider only Ribbentrop to be wholly incompetent. A complete disaster at every aspect of his job. Himmler, OTOH, was actually quite competent at his job. So background be damned. The others mentioned were good in some ways and poor to awful in other ways. In the early going, their abilities helped get them to where they ended up. And to a certain extent they were valuable to the regime. It was only once things got tough that their failings started to become unavoidable problems. Hitler attracted a certain kind of people. Generally failures at other things or at least not as successful as they had hoped. He could really inspire people to do things, often extreme things. There’s a certain mindset that works really well in this situation. If Lee Harvey Oswald had defected to Germany in 1936, he could have ended up head of the propaganda department, US division. Or dead. But the person with that job would be surprisingly decent at it. ---
**Author:** ![DeptfordX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DeptfordX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeptfordX)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/39 "2013-12-15T00:01:11Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Goering knew his aviation, and the air force he created for Hitler was perfect for quick _ **Blitzkrieg** _ campaigns against the East European countries (prior to 1940, no one expected a prolonged war with the Western powers). If he had had the balls to stand up to Hitler, and if Hitler had been willing to listen to his advice, the Me262 would have been put into service as a fighter in 1943, effectively ending the American daylight bombing campaign. _ **Volkssturm** _. Myth i’m afraid. An earlier descision to use it as a fighter and not as a high speed bomber wouldn’t have made a shred of difference. The Me262 engines were just barely the right side of possible with 40’s materials technology/engineering. They weren’t able to solve the technical issues and start production of it until 1944 anyway. _Solving_ here meaning 20+ hours of engine life if you were lucky, 12 if you weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103/40 "2013-12-15T00:44:27Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Sure, but how many governments is that _not_ true of? It is almost tautologically the case, in any political system (hereditary monarchies aside, maybe) that the people in power will be the ones best at gaining and holding on to power. If they happen to have administrative competence too, that is just good luck. No. There are plenty of leaders who were good at both: FDR and Churchill, for instance. Abraham Lincoln. Charles de Gaulle. Pierre Trudeau. [Sam Nujoma](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Nujoma) (an interesting case, since Namibia is a democracy with one-party rule and fair and free elections). In democracies (and Hitler came to power in a democracy), the people gaining power work to set up programs to achieve their goals, while also keeping the government running. That’s because if the government fails, they get kicked out of power. Putting incompetents in government positions is counterproductive in the long run (look at the issues with Obamacare, which are likely to hurt the government). Hitler ran on the goal of ethnic prejudice. They didn’t have any real platform other than to blame the country’s problems on the Jews and others. He and the other Nazis so concentrated on that that they let too many other things slide. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-nazi-leadership-so-mediocre/676103.md?page=3)