# Why was the "pick up artist" movement so popular in the mid 2000s to 2010s? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 17, 2022, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401 "2022-06-17T20:52:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/41 "2022-06-18T16:31:34Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > It is just slightly less ridiculous than superheroes wearing their underpants outside their leotards for some reason. My understanding is that that look (and the look of early superhero costumes, in general) was chosen by the artists to mimic the look of circus performers’ costumes. [![](https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/traveling-circus-northern-ireland-vintage-photos-06.jpg) ](https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/traveling-circus-northern-ireland-vintage-photos-06.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/42 "2022-06-18T17:07:54Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Also, note that he’s not really using ‘technique’, e.g. ‘negging’ her or doing the other things that describes; instead, he’s doing the classic Dale Carnegie thing of expressing interest in her by asking questions about her interests or that make her feel special and connected. Negging, et al, does work but only by exploiting insecurities, which is both not really a great way to form deeper connections and also self-selecting for people who have deep-seated issues. Sure, but this goes to what I was saying. Mostly those PUA things were just teaching conversation and confidence methods. “Negging” was not a bit part of it (at least when I got into PUA), it’s just the part that became well known in pop culture\*. As I say, I think it’s a pity, as the former kinds of skills are still useful, to men and women. Hopefully there are sites giving such advice now, but I guess they must be called something else. \* Also, the original idea of “negging” wasn’t to make people feel bad about themselves. It’s just that attractive people may be used to everyone being overly complimentary from the get-go, so the idea was you were just trying to distinguish yourself with some kind of tease, not a real insult. I didn’t stay in the community long though, so I don’t know if later it morphed into “Insult people so they feel bad about themselves” ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/43 "2022-06-18T17:20:33Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > - Also, the original idea of “negging” wasn’t to make people feel bad about themselves. It’s just that attractive people may be used to everyone being overly complimentary from the get-go, so the idea was you were just trying to distinguish yourself with some kind of tease, not a real insult. > I didn’t stay in the community long though, so I don’t know if later it morphed into “Insult people so they feel bad about themselves” On a 101 level some of those techniques absolutely work. Being able to tease women does work, because there are men who never tease any women, don’t know how. It’s not going to work in every situation, but learning to do it is going to help a man. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/44 "2022-06-18T17:26:45Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Also, while I know I shouldn’t care since I don’t agree with the concept, it does irritate me a bit that pop culture gets “negging” wrong. Negging is always supposed to be a compliment, with a slight backhanded aspect to it. An example I heard recently on an older podcast (while mocking PUAs) was “I really like your shoes. They look [very slight pause] comfortable.” I’m not saying your definition isn’t true, but this is the first I’ve heard it. I always thought that negging was _any_ form of putdown which manipulated a person’s self-esteem, resulting in the victim being more likely to ‘settlle’ for the manipulator. It would include backhanded cases like the one you describe. But it could also be straightforward: “Gee, those sure are ugly shoes”. It could also include putdowns that use one’s strong points against them. I (briefly) dated a woman who was a master of that one. E.g., I have a full head of hair, and she would often falsely claim–in front of others–that I spent ridiculous amounts of time and effort grooming and primping it, ala Sam Malone. I guess if a person was wearing a really nice pair of shoes, the putdown would go something like, “So, how many months’ pay did those shoes set you back?” ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/45 "2022-06-18T18:03:31Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > I always thought that negging was _any_ form of putdown which manipulated a person’s self-esteem, resulting in the victim being more likely to ‘settlle’ for the manipulator. No. Add me to those people who thought the idea was very different to this. For example, Stephen Merchant (one of the writers of the original office) gave the example of saying “I like your shoes…I think I saw another girl wearing the same kind”. Again, it’s not a big part of PUA, but the idea was just that when talking to people who get complimented a lot, you can stand out to them by just “damning with faint praise”. It’s certainly not meant to be at a level where you’re making someone feel _bad_ about themselves, let alone feeling bad being the _objective_. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/46 "2022-06-18T18:07:28Z")
> [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > Perhaps you’re thinking of Richard Feynman? Yes, that’s the cad! From your own link > [@](#): > > Rule One is: Disrespect women. Never be a gentleman. Rule Two: never pay for anything. Rule Three: Never pay for anything unless they have agreed to go to bed with you _and you know they aren’t lying_ . Feynman was deploying these ideas while working on the Manhattan Project on the 1960’s, and they were described in a book, “Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman”, which was published in 1985. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/47 "2022-06-18T18:09:49Z")
Ya learn somethin’ ev’ry day… While we’re on the subject, does anyone know if there’s a term for the kind of comment I described above? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/48 "2022-06-18T18:14:38Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Feynman was deploying these ideas while working on the Manhattan Project on the 1960’s, and they were described in a book, “Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman”, which was published in 1985. Nitpick: the Manhattan Project (on which he did, indeed, work) ended in 1947. In the 1960s, he was working at Caltech. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/49 "2022-06-18T18:21:30Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Why would I need 2010 era advice when I have Mike Damone’s Five Point Plan? > > > First of all, Rat, you never let on how much you like a girl. “Oh, Debbie. Hi.” > > > > Two, you always call the shots. “Kiss me. You won’t regret it.” > > > > Now three, act like wherever you are, that’s the place to be. “Isn’t this great?” > > > > Four, when ordering food, you find out what she wants, then order for the both of you. It’s a classy move. “Now, the lady will have the linguini and white clam sauce, and a Coke with no ice.” > > > > And five, now this is the most important, Rat. When it comes down to making out, whenever possible, put on side one of Led Zeppelin IV. And the unmentioned step six: Actually put on Physical Graffiti. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/50 "2022-06-18T18:23:22Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Mostly those PUA things were just teaching conversation and confidence methods. I’m not sure there’s a hard-and-fast line between the PUA “movement” and those teaching PUA techniques, on the one hand, and those teaching conversation, how to be attractive, social skills, etc. on the other hand. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/51 "2022-06-18T18:40:11Z")
I remember reading, and being amused by, the Usenet board alt.speed\_seduction back in the 90s. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/52 "2022-06-18T18:45:53Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Nitpick: the Manhattan Project (on which he did, indeed, work) ended in 1947. In the 1960s, he was working at Caltech. I seem to be making basic errors lately regarding things that I should have known. Yes, of course you are correct that the effort to develop the bomb was in the 1940’s. I don’t know why I messed that up. But, it does add to the assertion that this type of thinking - woman can be “won” with tricks of manipulation - are not (as the OP suggests) a phenomenon that can be limited to recent decades. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/53 "2022-06-18T19:05:17Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > There is nothing in your mind… nothing in your heart… nothing in your soul… but Svengali… Svengali… Svengali… ! > > [https://prod-images.tcm.com/Master-Profile-Images/svengali1931.1503.jpg?w=575](https://prod-images.tcm.com/Master-Profile-Images/svengali1931.1503.jpg?w=575) [He’s like a Svenjolly!](https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=540743879454701) ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/54 "2022-06-18T19:05:40Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > But, it does add to the assertion that this type of thinking - woman can be “won” with tricks of manipulation - are not (as the OP suggests) a phenomenon that can be limited to recent decades. Absolutely agreed. I didn’t know a lot about Feynman until recently, but my understanding is that he was a notorious libertine, at least as far back as the late '40s. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/55 "2022-06-18T20:24:30Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > It is just slightly less ridiculous than superheroes wearing their underpants outside their leotards for some reason. It’s only ridiculous if you describe it that way. It was never underpants over a leotard. It was a circus performer’s shorts over a circus performer’s Union suit. Over time, it just became a change in color from one part of the tights to another. It was never underpants. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/56 "2022-06-18T21:01:00Z")
Looks like underpants: [![](https://i0.wp.com/media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/screenshot-54.jpg?fit=801%2C946) ](https://i0.wp.com/media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/screenshot-54.jpg?fit=801%2C946) Actually, Robin is just wearing an adult-sized onesie along with an alternative jerkin that Errol Flynn refused to wear because his extensive research revealed that it would have been ahistorical for a Notts or Yorkish outlaw to afford red fabric. Batman, however, is definitely wearing blue silk granny panties that he found in Wardrobe, and Adam West was such a phenomenal acting powerhouse of the day that the producers and director didn’t want to tell him how silly it looked. It wasn’t until Tim Burton took over the franchise and disposed of the traditional costume in favor of the sadomasochistic leather look (taken to perfection in _Batman Returns_ with Michelle Pfeiffer sporting a catsuit that kicked off the modern dominatrix craze) that executives at Warner Bros. admitted that the were just trying to appeal to niche fetish culture but that Burton had really elevated the character to new orgasmic heights. Today’s _Trivial Cinema Trivia Moment_ brought to you by Fruit of the Loom, the underwear of superheroes. You, too, can enjoy the same comfort and protection that world-saving heroes have when they knock down skyscrapers full of innocent office workers and mid-level managers. Remember, you can’t make an omelet without killing a few civilians, and it isn’t as if their lost taxes are going to affect your bottom line anyway. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/57 "2022-06-18T21:03:38Z")
What’s _actually_ interesting about that photo is it looks like Burt Ward is wearing a sanitary pad. I see the tabs. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/58 "2022-06-18T21:09:01Z")
Speaking of sartorials, who needs pick-up technique when all you really need is [sexy man onesies](https://www.vintag.es/2018/02/1970s-onesie-bodysuits.html?m=1)? (How did these guys avoid being like [1975 Sears boxer shorts model?](https://www.straightdope.com/21342407/was-a-model-s-penis-visible-in-a-1975-sears-catalog) ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/59 "2022-06-18T22:18:57Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Absolutely agreed. I didn’t know a lot about Feynman until recently, but my understanding is that he was a notorious libertine, at least as far back as the late '40s. Supposedly, he quit drinking around 1949. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401/60 "2022-06-18T22:44:17Z")
The couple guys I knew that were ‘playboys’ or whatever you want to call male sluts [snicker] only trolled for women in known pickup bars - sort of using a pool that is preselected. Women who went for drinks at were there to pick up guys, guys were there to pick up women. Perfect. Have a cheap motel room already checked in to [never take them back to your place, don’t want them getting the idea you may be domesticatable =)] And they seemed to have a pretty steady Friday/Saturday schedule, decent luck picking up at a minimum 5-6 on the 1-10 scale, and they managed to avoid clingy women [if they don’t know where you live, and only see you in the bars picking up women they are not good candidates for serious relationships.] Both guys did end up in steady relationships, and married - they met those women at some place other than a meat market [as I remember, Matty met his wife through work, and Jack met his wife through a friend.] So, select your hunting ground for optimal cruising, and you won’t get shot down like you would trying to pick women up in a laundromat or grocery store [which were 2 target locations i seem to remember being discussed back in those days. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-the-pick-up-artist-movement-so-popular-in-the-mid-2000s-to-2010s/966401.md?page=4)