# Why was this useage of "queer" offensive? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [April 5, 2022, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320 "2022-04-05T15:04:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2022, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/199 "2022-04-11T20:36:19Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > No word is forbidden. Nonsense: of course some words are forbidden in some contexts. “Forbidding” doesn’t mean anything except in a particular context. > [@octopus](#): > > Anyways, my comment was directed at the usage of words in private and how that causes real harm. It should be obvious that that assertion is not a fact. Nothing you’ve said in any way refutes anything asserted by Johnny\_Bravo in post #193, which seemed to be what you were attempting to disagree with. As Johnny said in his example, the issue is not that harm is being directly caused when, say, a child innocently utters a racial slur at the breakfast table without understanding what it means. The issue is that once the child has been told that the word is a slur and shouldn’t be used, the excuse “but I didn’t mean anything bad by it!” is no longer valid. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2022, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/200 "2022-04-11T21:16:37Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > A Jewish friend frequently used the phrase “I Christianed him down”, which evoked the same connotation. Years ago, a friend of mine once used the phrase “Jewed him down” in my hearing. I asked him, “Did you Christian him back up?” He realized what he’d said, apologized, and didn’t use the term again; at least not in my hearing. Are you sure your friend isn’t trying to make the same point, and you’re just not getting it? > [@Kimstu](#): > > As Johnny said in his example, the issue is not that harm is being directly caused when, say, a child innocently utters a racial slur at the breakfast table without understanding what it means. The issue is that once the child has been told that the word is a slur and shouldn’t be used, the excuse “but I didn’t mean anything bad by it!” is no longer valid. And the issue is further (also as @Johnny_Bravo said) that the child should be told that the word shouldn’t be used. The child should definitely not be told that it’s a slur but it’s fine to use it anyway as long as you don’t think anyone’s in hearing who is likely to object. (If the word is in a complicated form of transition, and/or of ingroup-outgroup issues, you’re going to have to go by the age and ability of the particular child in deciding what to say. But even if there’s an element of “Uncle Z can use that word for X reasons” that doesn’t mean it’s OK for the child to use it randomly with friends.) – FWIW, and coming into this thread rather late: agreeing with earlier comments that “Jew” is fine as a noun, when applicable and relevant, and when the context isn’t insulting; “Jewish” is fine as an adjective. Don’t switch them. Do capitalize them, at least unless you’re not capitalizing anything else either. For me, it’s deliberately avoiding using “Jew” when that’s the correct word that’s questionable – for me, at least, it carries a distinct connotation of ‘there’s something wrong with being a Jew.’ I haven’t seen anybody avoiding, when relevant, saying that somebody’s a Christian, after all. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2022, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/201 "2022-04-11T21:37:54Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > For me, it’s deliberately avoiding using “Jew” when that’s the correct word that’s questionable – for me, at least, it carries a distinct connotation of ‘there’s something wrong with being a Jew.’ I haven’t seen anybody avoiding, when relevant, saying that somebody’s a Christian, after all. Oh, that brings back memories of the place I was born and lived most of my childhood as well. There were sort-of euphemisms: “of the Hebrew faith,” or “of the Jewish persuasion.” There were also people who would say the word, but drop their voice to a whisper: “oh, but she’s a Jew”. As you say, like it’s something shameful or there’s something wrong with being a Jew. I was lucky enough to have had a Jewish friend in 7th and 8th grade – I went to her Bat Mitzvah – that I learned a lot and did not grow up as ignorant as some of the people around me. I also read voraciously, and fought my own ignorance a lot. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/202 "2022-04-12T16:46:53Z")
I, too, prefer the word “Jew” when talking about a person. I say I’m a Jew, i don’t usually say that I’m Jewish, or otherwise avoid the word “Jew”. It’s what a grew up with, and it makes me anxious when other people dance around the word. “What, you think there’s something shameful about being a Jew?” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/203 "2022-04-12T17:31:08Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > - Using “queer” to self-identify is also generally okay. That includes both “I am queer” and “I am a queer”. It also includes most of the uses like LGBTQ group names. > - Using “queer” as a noun to “other” people, and set them apart from “ordinary” people is generally not okay. That was the problem with the post that was moderated. If was pretty much “there are too many queers in advertisements today” I’ll admit to having issues with the principle that seems to be at work here. This seems to be edging towards the “that’s our word” mentality. I feel a single rule should apply to everyone, regardless of their own sexual orientation. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/204 "2022-04-12T18:07:11Z")
It’s not so much a “who can use it” as a “how can I use it” idea. It’s true that it’s easier to use a word describing people as inclusive if you are described by the word than if you aren’t, but I think that in general it’s dicier to use any people-word in an exclusionary, othering way than to use it in an inclusive way. And that goes double for words that have a history of being used pejoratively. I do think the adjective is okay for anyone to use in non-negative ways, it’s mostly the noun that you need to be careful with. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/205 "2022-04-12T18:31:19Z")
I can call myself an asshole in GD, but not other posters. How is this materially different? ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/206 "2022-04-12T18:38:22Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Queer was a derogatory form until some groups started taking it back, probably as late as the 90s. More like the 1970’s, actually. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/207 "2022-04-12T18:39:58Z")
Thanks, ignorance fought. Of course, just because they were taking it back doesn’t give the rest of us license to use it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/208 "2022-04-12T18:41:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I can call myself an asshole in GD, but not other posters. How is this materially different? I don’t feel the main issue is with people using a questionable word to identify themselves as an individual. The potential problem I see is if people use a questionable word to identify a group of people, which they may or may not be a member of. I can call myself an asshole and I doubt anyone would object to me doing so. But suppose I write that Americans are assholes; does it make a difference if I am an American or a Canadian? What happens if somebody reading my post doesn’t know my nationality? ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/209 "2022-04-12T18:42:40Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Thanks, ignorance fought. Of course, just because they were taking it back doesn’t give the rest of us license to use it. Absolutely. I use it when talking to my daughter and her wife because they use it. In that very specific personal context it is fine. I would not use it among people who do not know me well. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/210 "2022-04-12T18:43:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I can call myself an asshole in GD, but not other posters. Only if the moderators there choose not to enforce “treat all posters with respect”. Self harm is a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/211 "2022-04-12T18:47:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t feel the main issue is with people using a questionable word to identify themselves as an individual. The potential problem I see is if people use a questionable word to identify a group of people, which they may or may not be a member of. How is that different from what **puzzlegal** wrote? ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/212 "2022-04-12T20:03:18Z")
I have to say I’ve been surprised in this thread, as in my circles the word has been entirely reclaimed and I hear it across major media all the time. Just today on the front page of the NY Times (electronic edition) is this sentence: " [The town of Zipolite has become an oasis for the queer community.](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/12/world/americas/mexico-nude-beach-playa-del-amor.html)" Here’s one of probably 300+ articles about Ariana DeBose, who just won an Academy Award, that identifies her as a “queer woman of color.” [Here’s an article in Backstage magazine](https://www.backstage.com/magazine/article/troye-sivan-lgbtq-three-months-74813/) about “queer actors in queer roles.” And I could go on and on. In my universe, I hear this word pretty much every day in a completely normal, non-offensive manner. I understand the distinction presented between noun and verb usage, and I agree there is a difference, but I’m always a bit surprised to catch a view outside my own bubble, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/213 "2022-04-12T21:21:58Z")
In those cases “queer” was used as an adjective. The case here was “queers”, used as a noun. I don’t think _The New York Times_ would let this pass > The town of Zipolite has become an oasis for queers. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/214 "2022-04-12T21:34:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How is that different from what **puzzlegal** wrote? I feel puzzlegal and I were addressing the same issue but taking sides that were, if not complete opposites, two different positions. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/215 "2022-04-12T21:43:13Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > In those cases “queer” was used as an adjective. The case here was “queers”, used as a noun. Did you elide over this part of my post? > [@ShadowFacts](#): > > I understand the distinction presented between noun and verb usage, and I agree there is a difference, This thread is not just about that single issue. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/216 "2022-04-12T21:43:40Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > > [@Crane](#): > > > > in the 50s the derogatory term for homosexual was “Fairy”. > > Or pansy. Back in the fifties, one of the non-derogatory terms was mattachine. When’s the last time you heard that used? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/217 "2022-04-12T21:46:50Z")
Sorry, your post said verb/noun, but your cites showed adjectives. So I thought you had assumed those were nouns. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/218 "2022-04-12T21:51:17Z")
“Mattachine” was not, so far as I’m aware, ever a term for “homosexual.” One of the first gay rights orgs was the Mattachine Society, but the name came from a French Renaissance tradition of masked folk dancing, which itself was based on a stock character from Italian theater, Mattaccino, a jester-figure known for speaking truth to power. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320.md?page=11)