# Why was this useage of "queer" offensive? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [April 5, 2022, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320 "2022-04-05T15:04:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/219 "2022-04-12T21:51:20Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Sorry, your post said verb/noun, but your cites showed adjectives. Sorry, you’re right, I meant adjective vs. noun usage. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/220 "2022-04-12T22:00:56Z")
thanks – I just learned something. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/221 "2022-04-12T22:45:27Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > The term can have a racist meaning, while at the same time the person who used it deserves the benefit of the doubt because they didn’t realize that meaning.⁢ > > There are exactly two circumstances in which an utterance _has_ a homophobic (or racist) meaning. > > 1. The person said it with homophobic intent > 2. A person who heard it (directly or indirectly) interprets it as homophobic You seem to be taking this idea as an axiom, even though it only comes from your own head. I and others have argued against this position, that words have meanings based on all speakers of that language, and you have not really given a reason that is wrong. Nor have you given a citation to back it up. Yet you still seem absolutely sure of it. It seems to me that this is merely a hypothesis you have that has not been tested to see how well it works in real life. Because, in real life, teaching someone that a word is only homophobic if people around them believe it is has some pretty bad drawbacks—one of which is that you can’t be sure that everyone doesn’t know the homophobic meaning or will learn it. Ultimately, what is and is not homophobic (or any other bigotry-related word) depends on its effects on society, not on some ideologically pure concept of the terms that can only exist in a vacuum. You keep on connecting this with right and wrong and whether someone deserves punishment. The point of my argument is that these are separate concepts. You can have something that was homophobic, but argue that the person who said it was just ignorant and thus not deserving of punishment. That connection can be a huge problem. It makes it hard to tell someone that something they said is bigoted without them seeing it as an attack on their character. But it isn’t inherently so. Ideally, in fact, it would never have to be. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/222 "2022-04-12T23:26:26Z")
Membership in a group doesn’t determine intent or context. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/223 "2022-04-12T23:38:54Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I and others have argued against this position, that words have meanings based on all speakers of that language, and you have not really given a reason that is wrong. Nor have you given a citation to back it up. Yet you still seem absolutely sure of it. Because debating it at length would be furthering a hijack. I stated my opinion, you stated yours; we can agree to disagree on what determines the meaning of words. If you want to continue I will refer you elsewhere, > [@What determines the meaning of words?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-determines-the-meaning-of-words/855333): > > I think each person imparts meaning upon words. Words mean what people want them to mean; meaning follows usage. I reject the notion that words have some sort of intrinsic, Platonic meaning. Without people, words cease to exist - all that would remain would be meaningless patterns of ink. No mere dictionary can prescribe the meaning of words. Dictionaries are created to catalogue ever-evolving language, and I think descriptive dictionaries and people who push too hard on the “proper” usage of w… > [@BigT](#): > > That connection can be a huge problem. It makes it hard to tell someone that something they said is bigoted without them seeing it as an attack on their character. You seem to understand my position well enough, because in my opinion calling someone a bigot, or calling their position bigoted, _is_ an attack on their character. (Assuming, of course, bigotry is morally wrong.) ~Max ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/224 "2022-04-12T23:43:08Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > You seem to understand my position well enough, because in my opinion calling someone a bigot, or calling their position bigoted, _is_ an attack on their character. (Assuming, of course, bigotry is morally wrong.) You can tell someone that they said something bigoted without calling them a bigot. That’s how we learn. And yes, bigotry is morally wrong. How is that even a question? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2022, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/225 "2022-04-12T23:51:13Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > And yes, bigotry is morally wrong. How is that even a question? It goes hand in hand with my opinion that the meaning of words is subjective. In affirmative action debates you might see some refer to AA as racist but justified. Others think racism is necessarily wrong therefore AA is not racist. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2022, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/226 "2022-04-13T00:05:33Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > > > And yes, bigotry is morally wrong. How is that even a question? > > It goes hand in hand with my opinion that the meaning of words is subjective. I read through some of your opinion on the matter. For instance: > [@What determines the meaning of words?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-determines-the-meaning-of-words/855333/1): > > No mere dictionary can prescribe the meaning of words. Dictionaries are created to catalogue ever-evolving language, and I think descriptive dictionaries and people who push too hard on the “proper” usage of words misunderstand the nature of language. Did you mean prescriptive dictionaries in the part I bolded? Since practically all general use dictionaries are descriptive and since I’m pretty sure that the lexicographers understand language at least as well as you do, you’re simply wrong if you meant descriptive. If you meant prescriptive, then your argument is out of scope since prescriptive dictionaries are targeted at a narrow field of users, say like how Black’s Law Dictionary is for lawyers, and are unlikely to much influence the language of people outside those fields. I will grant, though, that all dictionaries are at least five years out of step with current trends in language at the moment of publication. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2022, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/227 "2022-04-13T00:14:06Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > If you meant prescriptive It looks like I did. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2022, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/228 "2022-04-13T00:17:18Z")
Just noticed the date on the thread. Wish I hadn’t missed it while it was ongoing. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2022, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/229 "2022-04-13T00:18:53Z")
I think you were on hiatus at the time. Feel free to revive it, or start a spin-off in GD. I won’t mind. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2022, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/230 "2022-04-13T01:39:05Z")
You are correct, not on its own. But depending on the phrasing, it can make a big difference. A Canadian says, “Americans are all assholes.” That seems hateful and bigoted. It should be moderated outside of the Pit for sure, and possibly even in the Pit. An American says, “Americans are all assholes.” Well, that might be a bit different, maybe not. If you didn’t know the person posting it was American, you’d (understandably) treat it the same as the previous example, as hateful bigotry. And even if you knew the author was American, you might interpret as meaning, “Everyone in America but myself is an asshole.” Regardless, I’d say it probably merits moderation outside of the Pit. That previous person says, “I’m an American and we’re all assholes.” That’s verging on self-deprecating humor, though still potentially insulting anyone else who is American. As a person included in the group being insulted, I probably wouldn’t be offended, though it would depend on other context. For example, if it was a Cafe Society thread about cheese, and it was a reply to someone who asked why processed cheese was so popular in America, I’d definitely just laugh that off. Finally, someone says, “I’m an asshole.” That’s pure self-deprecation as it insults a group of one, that one being the person who wrote it. That’s unlikely to cause offense anywhere. (Unless maybe it’s a person offering to do a parody of another poster…?) So bottom line, I mostly agree with you octopus; on its own membership in a group isn’t a determining factor. But it might be a contributing factor. It’s certainly not _completely_ irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2022, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/231 "2022-04-13T20:55:40Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > That connection can be a huge problem. It makes it hard to tell someone that something they said is bigoted without them seeing it as an attack on their character. > > You seem to understand my position well enough, because in my opinion calling someone a bigot, or calling their position bigoted, _is_ an attack on their character. (Assuming, of course, bigotry is morally wrong.) You seem to be missing that it’s possible to tell someone “that word you just used is bigoted” without telling them “you are a bigot”. In fact, you probably wouldn’t say that to a bigot. He used the word on purpose, and won’t learn anything from you. But it’s valuable to tell your non-bigoted friend that they are using words they shouldn’t be using. I’m grateful to people who have told me when i used words that i didn’t realize had bigoted interpretations. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2022, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/232 "2022-04-13T23:17:20Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > You seem to be missing that it’s possible to tell someone “that word you just used is bigoted” without telling them “you are a bigot”. Nevertheless if you tell someone their _position_ is bigoted, you may as well tell them they are bigots. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2022, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/233 "2022-04-13T23:41:35Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Nevertheless if you tell someone their _position_ is bigoted, you may as well tell them they are bigots. No. I have at times allowed my prejudices to color my positions. I have been fortunate to have friends and family point these out to me, and I have used these moments as opportunities for introspection and growth. We all have prejudices. We all make mistakes. We are all capable of growth. The bigot is the person who refuses to grow because they are comfortable and confident with exhibiting their prejudice and imposing it on others. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2022, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/234 "2022-04-13T23:48:30Z")
I think the topic of this thread is the usage of the word “queer”. And I am commenting because it appears that you have taken the wrong-headed (not bigoted, just wrong) opinion that a word is only has a homophobic (or racist) meaning if the person said it with homophobic intent or a person who hears it interprets it as homophobic. People have shown you many ways in which using a word in a way that is homophobic in the general vernacular can help condition people to accept its homophobic use when they later run into that. So I’m telling you that it’s wrong to tell your kids to play a game with a homophobic name, even if you mean it innocently and the kids don’t (yet) know that word. You are not being bigoted to do so, but even without your direct bigotry, you are aiding and abetting bigotry. And I saw this hoping that you will reflect, and grow. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/235 "2022-04-14T00:13:13Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And I saw this hoping that you will reflect, and grow. Don’t hold your breath. @Max_S has persistently expressed bizarre views on semantics. > [@Fighting misogyny - but "cunt" and "bitch" are still okay words](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/114): > > I fail to see the relevance of that point. Are you implying that gender-specific insults should be off-limits because gender-specific insults are hate speech? That it is the gender-specific quality of a curse word which puts it past a bright line? I don’t agree, but I would be interested in hearing the argument supporting that premise. It’s a complicated question but I’m going to say no, calling a black man who punches your wife a nigger is not hate speech just because you called a black man … ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2022, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/236 "2022-04-14T00:17:00Z")
You know, I just noticed that this is ATMB, and I’m going to drop this digression. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/237 "2022-04-16T01:57:01Z")
Regarding nouns: The Geography of Research on LGBTQ Life: Why sociologists should study the South, rural queers, and ordinary cities [https://doi.org/10.1111/soc4.12638](https://doi.org/10.1111/soc4.12638) Hindu nation and its queers: caste, Islamophobia, and de/coloniality in India > **[Hindu Nation and its Queers: Caste, Islamophobia, and De/coloniality in India](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1369801X.2020.1749709)** > > The 2018 Indian Supreme Court judgement decriminalizing homosexuality has been marked as a “decolonial act.” Section 377, which criminalized homosexuality, was a colonial law introduced by the Brit... Queers of Colour and (De) Colonial Spaces in Europe > **[Queers of Colour and (De)Colonial Spaces in Europe](https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9780429402203-9/queers-colour-de-colonial-spaces-europe-1-paola-bacchetta-fatima-el-tayeb-jin-haritaworn)** > > This chapter deals with Queer People of Colour positionalities as a valuable lens through which to rethink the racial and colonial imaginaries of subjects and Granted, most of us can tell the difference between a scholarly tone and a rant. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320/238 "2022-04-16T07:51:40Z")
There’s a difference between “Queers” and “_ **The** _ queers”. Like there’s a difference between someone talking about “Jews” and “The Jews”, and anyone with any sense knows it. Now, the original referent used the former not the latter, and claimed ingroup usage privileges to boot, so I was OK with it being merely noted. But if someone started using the latter usage, I’d hope they’d get modded for it _tout de suite_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-was-this-useage-of-queer-offensive/962320.md?page=12)