# Why wasn't the police officer who killed Eric Garner indicted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271 "2014-12-04T00:06:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/181 "2014-12-04T22:32:28Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The thing about Ferguson is, to the people who saw it, he didn’t look like an unfavorable guy. No one likely paid attention to what happened before the first shot. They saw a guy run away from getting shot at, and then turning around to surrender when he realized he couldn’t outrun the cop, all the time not having a weapon or anything. And then he was just left there for a long time. They didn’t know about the other issues, and when they started coming up, it looked like the typical attempts to vilify the victim in order to exonerate the cop. > > I also don’t think the protests are as unfortunate as people think. They did still raise awareness of the issue of the militarization of the police and how they treat minorities. And I think they are largely responsible for the case getting a sort of “fair trial” in front of the grand jury. If all police killings were handled this way, we’d be a lot better off, even if I still don’t find it ideal. In my opinion, it is the accretion of cases that is raising awareness. That is, one can explain one case away (and the Ferguson case can be so explained), but when you get another, and then another, and yet another - it becomes more difficult. People start to pay more attention. Fact is, these _other_ cases are a lot _more_ difficult to explain away - see upthread, where even US Conservative talking heads are starting to say there is a real problem. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/182 "2014-12-04T22:34:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Notwithstanding the fact that cutting off the airway is the entire point of a chokehold, being able to say “I can’t breathe” disproves the assertion that one cannot breathe. “I can’t breathe” can also mean “I am having difficulty breathing”. In fact, if you are having difficulty breathing, it’s a hell of a lot easier to just say “I can’t breathe”. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/183 "2014-12-04T22:39:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What you are so notably failing to get is that the whole point of protests is to make people generally sympathize with the cause being protested for. No I get that just fine. You’re simply assuming your own lack of sympathy reflects what everyone feels. It does not. Without the Ferguson protests, substantially fewer people would even know who Brown was, let alone be sympathetic to him. The protests created international attention. Forget about our country. The _world_ is paying more attention to our police than it probably ever has before. If you can’t see the power in that then I question your ability to see. > [@](#): > > Again, the point of protests isn’t what the protesters think, it is about changing the opinions of those who aren’t protesting. It is inarguable they have. Go visit the [thread in IHMO](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=742353)that **Shakes** started. Take a look at the stats. There are about as many posters in that thread that think Brown’s death was unjustified as there was that say it was. Go read the million page thread in the Pit about Ferguson. Do you think those who believe Brown’s death was injust would feel that way if there hadn’t been protests? They wouldn’t even know who Brown was. And the extreme militarization of the Ferguson PD would be unknown. We’d all be thinking that part of Missouri is Mayberry. > [@](#): > > Here, you are addressing your argument to me as a poster (“Maybe outsiders like you …”), rather than to the validity of my facts or arguments. > > [http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html) Because you are not a resident of Ferguson, that makes you an outsider. A statement of fact constitutes an ad hom in your world? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/184 "2014-12-04T22:42:40Z")
Question: what meaning did the coroner’s determination of homicide as cause of death have, legally? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/185 "2014-12-04T22:44:16Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > The left should be cheering his death. He was involved with cheating the state out of money - the highest of crimes. > > This and other recent events is the result of the left’s attempt to create utopia. [What if Eric Garner was Cliven Bundy?](http://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/what-if-eric-garner-had-been-white/383420/) > [@Peter Beinart](#): > > Like Garner, Bundy was engaged in a form of commerce he believed the government should not tax. Like Garner, Bundy resisted law enforcement’s efforts to punish him for it. For many conservatives, this made Bundy a hero and the government that sought to penalize him a tyranny. Right-wing activists, including some Republican legislators, flocked to Bundy’s ranch as he stared down federal agents, and Nevada Senator Dean Heller dubbed these vigilantes “patriots.” “At the heart of this issue,” declared Fox’s Sean Hannity, is “my belief that our government is simply out of control.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/186 "2014-12-04T23:07:44Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Like when the police tries to use non-lethal force (like a tazer) and the subject dies anyway, correct? Sure. That may not eliminate liability for the death, but it’s not “deadly force,” as that term is used in law. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/187 "2014-12-04T23:07:58Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Hate to double-post, but I missed the edit window. > > The hemorrhaging resulting for a prohibited choke hold. Does it matter if Garner died from asphyxiation or bleeding from his arteries? He still died because the cop used excessive force for a misdemeanor crime. Do you have a cite for that? This article says: > [@](#): > > The forbidden chokehold used by a cop to take down a Staten Island man in a deadly encounter Thursday did not damage his windpipe or neck bones, sources said. > **[Man in chokehold death had no throat damage: autopsy](https://nypost.com/2014/07/19/man-in-chokehold-death-had-no-throat-damage-autopsy/)** > > The forbidden chokehold used by a cop to take down a Staten Island man in a deadly encounter Thursday did not damage his windpipe or neck bones, sources said. The preliminary autopsy findings could… The cause of death was given as this: > [@](#): > > But the medical examiner’s office was clear in the cause of his death, finding he died from “compression of neck (choke hold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police.” [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/02/nyregion/staten-island-man-died-from-officers-chokehold-autopsy-finds.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/02/nyregion/staten-island-man-died-from-officers-chokehold-autopsy-finds.html) So the choke hold is only one of three things cited. I’m certainly no doctor, but from a layman’s perspective, it seems like it would be extremely difficult to directly link Garner’s death to the choke hold beyond a reasonable doubt. Garner was not “choked to death” as a lot of places are saying. He died 10-15 minutes after being placed in a choke hold for at most 10-15 seconds. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/188 "2014-12-04T23:11:33Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Question: what meaning did the coroner’s determination of homicide as cause of death have, legally? “Homicide” means the death was directly caused by another person. It does _not_ mean the death was the result of a crime. It is a manner of death- the other options are suicide, accidental, natural causes and undetermined/unknown. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/189 "2014-12-04T23:16:47Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m going to cosign the arguments that have been made about the significance of Mike Brown to this case. I actually think that if it weren’t for that case being broadcast on a national arena (aided in large part by the protests), Eric Garner would not appear so sympathetic. Disagree. As **astorian** has already cited, plenty of conservatives see the cases as distinctly different. I caught a few minutes of Rush Limbaugh in the car today, and he seemed to agree. Speaking for myself, in the Ferguson case, I think the cop acted poorly, but (AFAICT) nowhere near criminally, and the protests and riots made me think worse, not better of Brown and his community. In the Garner case, I am shocked and appalled that the cops weren’t indicted, and pray to god the feds can get them. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/190 "2014-12-04T23:25:13Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Disagree. > > As **astorian** has already cited, plenty of conservatives see the cases as distinctly different. I caught a few minutes of Rush Limbaugh in the car today, and he seemed to agree. > > Speaking for myself, in the Ferguson case, I think the cop acted poorly, but (AFAICT) nowhere near criminally, and the protests and riots made me think worse, not better of Brown and his community. > In the Garner case, I am shocked and appalled that the cops weren’t indicted, and pray to god the feds can get them. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/191 "2014-12-04T23:28:05Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Disagree. > > As **astorian** has already cited, plenty of conservatives see the cases as distinctly different. I caught a few minutes of Rush Limbaugh in the car today, and he seemed to agree. > > Speaking for myself, in the Ferguson case, I think the cop acted poorly, but (AFAICT) nowhere near criminally, and the protests and riots made me think worse, not better of Brown and his community. > In the Garner case, I am shocked and appalled that the cops weren’t indicted, and pray to god the feds can get them. I’m surprised as well. Of course, I didn’t hear all the evidence, but since probable cause is a low standard, it seems to me that a decision not to indict was based on other factors beyond simply the presence of probable cause. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/192 "2014-12-04T23:47:25Z")
Mr. Mace: “He died because he was resisting arrest.” Er, this would be incorrect. He died because of a chokehold and another cop on his head that resulted in asphyxia. 🙂 At any rate, I gather many people are entirely and possibly blissfully unaware of the legal truth that a person may lawfully resist an unlawful arrest. They are not required to “go limp” as you put it. One is not necessarily committing an unlawful act by resisting arrest. “… the cops had a legitimate reason to arrest him…” You seem to be making a legal or factual determination without pointing to any basis for it. Someone might argue that he was violating the law by engaging in “disorderly conduct” for arguing with the police about whether he was or was not unlawfully selling single cigarettes. “You make it sound like it was a routine arrest…” It was in no way routine. While there was a reason to issue him a civil citation; there was no discernible valid basis for arrest. (We may for the sake of the subargument ignore everything that occurred after that decision was made.) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/193 "2014-12-04T23:57:05Z")
> [@Fallen](#): > > . . . I gather many people are entirely and possibly blissfully unaware of the legal truth that a person may lawfully resist an unlawful arrest. . . . Has this defense been used successfully with any frequency in court cases? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/194 "2014-12-05T00:12:54Z")
> [@Fallen](#): > > At any rate, I gather many people are entirely and possibly blissfully unaware of the legal truth that a person may lawfully resist an unlawful arrest. They are not required to “go limp” as you put it. One is not necessarily committing an unlawful act by resisting arrest. At common law, this was true. But today, the majority of states have abrogated that common law privilege, and in those states you cannot legally resist an unlawful arrest. > [@](#): > > It was in no way routine. While there was a reason to issue him a civil citation; there was no discernible valid basis for arrest. (We may for the sake of the subargument ignore everything that occurred after that decision was made.) Atwater v. Lago Vista. An arrest for a offense that normally gains only a citation does not offend the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/195 "2014-12-05T00:25:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > At common law, this was true. But today, the majority of states have abrogated that common law privilege, and in those states you cannot legally resist an unlawful arrest. And New York is one of the states that has statutorily abrogated the right to resist an illegal arrest. Cites on request. Got a cite for the contrary claim, **Fallen**? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/196 "2014-12-05T00:33:09Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > For what it’s worth, the talking heads of the Right are NOT unanimously supporting the cops in New York as they did Darren WIlson: > > 1. Glen Beck: “How this cop did not go to jail is beyond me.” > [Eric Garner | Mediaite](http://www.mediaite.com/online/glenn-beck-on-garner-how-this-cop-did-not-go-to-jail-is-beyond-me/) > > 2. Charles Krauthammer: Grand Jury’s decision was “totally incomprehensible” > [Fox News - Breaking News Updates | Latest News Headlines | Photos & News Videos](http://insider.foxnews.com/2014/12/03/totally-incomprehensible-charles-krauthammer-says-grand-jury-made-wrong-judgment-nypd) > > 3. Sean Davis of The Federalist says Officer Pantaleo was guilty of manslaughter > [Hands Up, Don't Choke: Eric Garner Was Killed By Police For No Reason](http://thefederalist.com/2014/12/03/hands-up-dont-choke-eric-garner-was-murdered-by-police-for-no-reason/) I probably shouldn’t admit this 😉 but I have a sneaking suspicion this is happening because they don’t want to look like complete assholes after Mike Brown. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/197 "2014-12-05T01:02:42Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I probably shouldn’t admit this 😉 but I have a sneaking suspicion this is happening because they don’t want to look like complete assholes after Mike Brown. The sad (and underreported) story about [Aiyana Stanley-Jones](http://www.infowars.com/charges-dropped-for-cop-who-fatally-shot-sleeping-7-year-old-girl/) is also in the news this week. Not to mention 12-year-old Tamir Rice. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/198 "2014-12-05T01:11:31Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/199 "2014-12-05T01:43:39Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I suspect the focus on the hold is because it is banned by the NYPD. Personally, I suspect the focus on the hold is because of the autopsy report indicating that it was a factor in his death. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/200 "2014-12-05T02:40:43Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Without the Ferguson protests, substantially fewer people would even know who Brown was, let alone be sympathetic to him. Who gives a shit? That’s how it should be! Be sympathetic to Garner and any of the other clear cases of police overstepping on other African Americans but Brown was NOT one of them. He’s dead because he was a thug who tried to “keep it real” but it went bad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=11)