# Why wasn't the police officer who killed Eric Garner indicted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271 "2014-12-04T00:06:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/21 "2014-12-04T09:47:38Z")
Thank you, Inspector Javert. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/22 "2014-12-04T10:06:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > > [@septimus](#): > > > > For the benefit of non-Americans, a “loosie” is not a bag of heroin or anything like that. It is _ **a single tobacco cigarette** _ sold for a tiny amount of change. > > > > Yes, that’s right. Mr. Garner was arrested (and in the process killed) for selling tiny amounts of tobacco to poor people. In a city where billion-dollar fraudsters drive their Maseratis, immune from prosecution. > > He was breaking the law. Does the fact that some crimes go unpunished mean we shouldn’t bother enforcing any of them? The phrase “lack of perspective” does not do justice to the lack of perspective exhibited here. If I didn’t know better, I’d think you were attempting to amuse by parodizing right-wing thought. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/23 "2014-12-04T10:18:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He was breaking the law. Does the fact that some crimes go unpunished mean we shouldn’t bother enforcing any of them? I bet cops look the other way all the time for “silly” crimes like selling loosies, and I wouldn’t fault them. And the nature of the crime should be a factor in how the “criminal” is detained, right? An unarmed man selling loosies who has done nothing aggressive to the police should not have been physically detained like that, at least not without some discussion or provocation. And “I can’t breathe” seems like a really good point to release a choke hold, even if we ignore the fact that one shouldn’t have been applied, period. This was a stunner to me. How could this not meet the low GJ threshold for some form of unlawful homicide? I will be very interested in what the details are if they’re released, because I can’t imagine what would have combined with that video to conclude “no indictment.” I can’t even come up with a hypothetical. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/24 "2014-12-04T10:39:08Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I bet cops look the other way all the time for “silly” crimes like selling loosies, and I wouldn’t fault them. And the nature of the crime should be a factor in how the “criminal” is detained, right? An unarmed man selling loosies who has done nothing aggressive to the police should not have been physically detained like that, at least not without some discussion or provocation. Which there was. He chose to fight. > [@](#): > > And “I can’t breathe” seems like a really good point to release a choke hold, even if we ignore the fact that one shouldn’t have been applied, period. Notwithstanding the fact that cutting off the airway is the entire point of a chokehold, being able to say “I can’t breathe” disproves the assertion that one cannot breathe. > [@](#): > > This was a stunner to me. How could this not meet the low GJ threshold for some form of unlawful homicide? I will be very interested in what the details are if they’re released, because I can’t imagine what would have combined with that video to conclude “no indictment.” I can’t even come up with a hypothetical. The man was overweight and asthmatic, and those factors contributed to his death from a hold that wouldn’t have killed a healthier man. The hold itself was not unlawful (just prohibited by the department) and was in fact one he’d learned in the academy, so his actions did not rise to the level of criminal manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/25 "2014-12-04T10:41:12Z")
> [@treis](#): > > We can talk about whether or not selling loosies should be illegal. But the cops don’t make that call. They enforce the laws and **Mr. Garner was clearly breaking the law.** (Emphasis mine) Do we know that Garner was “clearly breaking the law”? I haven’t read anything yet that established that he was selling illegal cigarettes. I’ve only read of that accusation being made. Can you direct me to a cite that he clearly broke the law? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/26 "2014-12-04T11:06:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Which there was. He chose to fight. Well, you and I have different definitions of “fight,” then, if that video looks like something that warranted a dog pile with a choke hold. > [@](#): > > Notwithstanding the fact that cutting off the airway is the entire point of a chokehold, being able to say “I can’t breathe” disproves the assertion that one cannot breathe. His death notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/27 "2014-12-04T11:16:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The hold itself was not unlawful (just prohibited by the department) and was in fact one he’d learned in the academy, so his actions did not rise to the level of criminal manslaughter. I want to address this specific point. The fact that a choke hold could be appropriate in a given situation does not mean it’s appropriate in _any_ situation by virtue of it not being unlawful per se. The question is whether or not it’s excessive against an unarmed petty criminal who had done nothing aggressive toward the cops. IMO, it clearly was. The fact that with another person, it may not have resulted in death, doesn’t change the fact that it was excessive and was the cause of death (per the coroner) _in this case_. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/28 "2014-12-04T11:55:46Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > (Emphasis mine) > > Do we know that Garner was “clearly breaking the law”? I haven’t read anything yet that established that he was selling illegal cigarettes. I’ve only read of that accusation being made. Can you direct me to a cite that he clearly broke the law? Thanks. Innocent until proven guilty apparently only applies to white people. I heard that they didn’t find a single cigarrette on Garner, loosie or otherwise. But let’s ignore this trifle detail for a sec. That such a “crime” apparently warrants being tackled to the ground by half a dozen officers, choked, and arrested is the second most horrible thing that this case reveals. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/29 "2014-12-04T12:12:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Notwithstanding the fact that cutting off the airway is the entire point of a chokehold, being able to say “I can’t breathe” disproves the assertion that one cannot breathe. How about dying? Does that prove the assertion that he couldn’t breathe? ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/30 "2014-12-04T12:20:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Typical of these liberal boards, sixteen posts and not even one mention of black-on-black crime. Because that’s not the topic under discussion. You could start a thread on the subject, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/31 "2014-12-04T12:33:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Which there was. He chose to fight. > > Notwithstanding the fact that cutting off the airway is the entire point of a chokehold, being able to say “I can’t breathe” disproves the assertion that one cannot breathe. > > The man was overweight and asthmatic, and those factors contributed to his death from a hold that wouldn’t have killed a healthier man. The hold itself was not unlawful (just prohibited by the department) and was in fact one he’d learned in the academy, so his actions did not rise to the level of criminal manslaughter. Holy fuck. The move was prohibited by the department, but because he learned it in the academy, then it isn’t manslaughter? On what planet does that make logical sense? The man was asthmatic. I’d be surprised if it was the first time he said “I can’t breathe” and meant it. Just because he had enough airflow to mouth the words doesn’t mean he got anywhere near enough air to survive, as was quickly shown. So the cops murder a guy because they thought he was selling cigarettes. Only in Amerikkka. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/32 "2014-12-04T12:39:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > being able to say “I can’t breathe” disproves the assertion that one cannot breathe. > [@Stratocaster](#): > > His death notwithstanding. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How about dying? Does that prove the assertion that he couldn’t breathe? I am strongly on the “This was excessive force/this was inexcusable/there should have been an indictment” side of this, but … You can’t say “I can’t breathe” when you can’t breathe. I believe that he felt like he couldn’t breathe. I believe there could have been moments during the altercation when he genuinely couldn’t breathe. Because the coroner’s report says so, I believe the choke hold caused the death in this case. But, while he was saying “I can’t breathe” he was breathing. There are plenty of points on which to tear apart the pro-cop side in this particular case. When someone says that a person can’t say “I can’t breathe” if they can’t breathe, let it go. That part is factually correct. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/33 "2014-12-04T12:44:33Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > I am strongly on the “This was excessive force/this was inexcusable/there should have been an indictment” side of this, but … > > You can’t say “I can’t breathe” when you can’t breathe. > I believe that he felt like he couldn’t breathe. I believe there could have been moments during the altercation when he genuinely couldn’t breathe. Because the coroner’s report says so, I believe the choke hold caused the death in this case. > > But, while he was saying “I can’t breathe” he was breathing. > > There are plenty of points on which to tear apart the pro-cop side in this particular case. > When someone says that a person can’t say “I can’t breathe” if they can’t breathe, let it go. That part is factually correct. Complete nonsense. People who say “I can’t breathe”, in the vast majority of cases, aren’t lying – they’re saying “I can’t breathe” because they don’t have enough time in between bouts of _not breathing_ to say “a few seconds ago your choke hold had me in a position in which I couldn’t breathe, and I’m afraid that if you continue this choke hold you will again put me in a condition in which I can’t breathe”. In shorthand English, his “I can’t breathe” statement (and anyone else’s) means “I am having extreme trouble in breathing and am worried these conditions, if they continue, will cause me significant harm and/or death”. So **Smapti** ’s statement (and yours, in my view), is complete sideshow nonsense. Him saying “I can’t breathe”, and then subsequently dying, is pretty strong evidence that the cops forced him in a position in which he couldn’t breathe. It’s beyond pointless to point out that in the instant he said “I can’t breathe” he may have been inhaling/exhaling some slight volume of air. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/34 "2014-12-04T12:48:34Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > I am strongly on the “This was excessive force/this was inexcusable/there should have been an indictment” side of this, but … > > You can’t say “I can’t breathe” when you can’t breathe. > I believe that he felt like he couldn’t breathe. I believe there could have been moments during the altercation when he genuinely couldn’t breathe. Because the coroner’s report says so, I believe the choke hold caused the death in this case. > > But, while he was saying “I can’t breathe” he was breathing. > > There are plenty of points on which to tear apart the pro-cop side in this particular case. > When someone says that a person can’t say “I can’t breathe” if they can’t breathe, let it go. That part is factually correct. People who can’t breathe will use what little air they have to ask for help. If you were standing by, I would hardly expect you to say “Excuse me, but the fact that you expelled air past your vocal chords indicates that you are, indeed, breathing and therefore you are in no danger of dying.” ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/35 "2014-12-04T13:08:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The man was overweight and asthmatic, and those factors contributed to his death from a hold that wouldn’t have killed a healthier man. So you’re arguing it was suicide? ETA: My title for this thread woulda been, **Why isn’t Eric Garner’s killer in jail awaiting trial?** ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/36 "2014-12-04T13:14:12Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > For the benefit of non-Americans, a “loosie” is not a bag of heroin or anything like that. It is _ **a single tobacco cigarette** _ sold for a tiny amount of change. > > Yes, that’s right. Mr. Garner was arrested (and in the process killed) for selling tiny amounts of tobacco to poor people. In a city where billion-dollar fraudsters drive their Maseratis, immune from prosecution. Not quite. He died because he was resisting arrest. That is not to say his death was warranted, but had he accepted the fact that he was breaking the law, and the cops had a legitimate reason to arrest him, things would almost certainly have gone differently. I think that’s an important detail left out of your summary. You make it sound like it was a routine arrest, when in fact Mr. Garner fought with the police as they were trying to arrest him. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/37 "2014-12-04T13:30:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > People who say “I can’t breathe”, in the vast majority of cases, aren’t lying – they’re saying “I can’t breathe” because they don’t have enough time in between bouts of _not breathing_ to say “a few seconds ago your choke hold had me in a position in which I couldn’t breathe, and I’m afraid that if you continue this choke hold you will again put me in a condition in which I can’t breathe”. I agree 100%. > [@](#): > > In shorthand English, his “I can’t breathe” statement (and anyone else’s) means “I am having extreme trouble in breathing and am worried these conditions, if they continue, will cause me significant harm and/or death”. I agree 100%. > [@](#): > > Him saying “I can’t breathe”, and then subsequently dying, is pretty strong evidence that the cops forced him in a position in which he couldn’t breathe. I agree 100%. And when someone like **Smapti** puts forth the completely pointless and myopic and nit-pickingly crass _but factually correct_ assertion that one can not say “I can’t breathe” if they can not breathe, then any of the quoted portions of your reply would make for an appropriate response adding valuable content to the conversation, scoring a point for the good guys, and making me smile that “Yeah, I’m on the same side of the argument as _that guy_!” It’s much better than suggesting that his factually correct statement is wrong rather than that is it weak or that it misses the point. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/38 "2014-12-04T13:39:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not quite. He died because he was resisting arrest. That is not to say his death was warranted, but had \*\*he accepted the fact \*\*that he was breaking the law, and the cops had a legitimate reason to arrest him, things would almost certainly have gone differently. I think that’s an important detail left out of your summary. You make it sound like it was a routine arrest, when in fact Mr. Garner fought with the police as they were trying to arrest him. Do you know, in fact, that he _was_ breaking the law? That determination is made in court, not by cops and certainly not by armchair spectators who have nothing to go by except the accusations of the same cops who killed him. You also haven’t explained how the guy resisted arrest. One minute he was standing in one place and protesting his innocence, like any innocent person would. The next minute he was being wrestled to ground by a small football team of policemen. This conflict went from 0 to 100 in a matter of seconds. Claiming he resisted arrest in that flash of time is ridiculous. Look at the video again. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/39 "2014-12-04T13:42:49Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > And when someone like **Smapti** puts forth the completely pointless and myopic and nit-pickingly crass _but factually correct_ assertion that one can not say “I can’t breathe” if they can not breathe, then any of the quoted portions of your reply would make for an appropriate response adding valuable content to the conversation, scoring a point for the good guys, and making me smile that “Yeah, I’m on the same side of the argument as _that guy_!” > > It’s much better than suggesting that his factually correct statement is wrong rather than that is it weak or that it misses the point. It doesn’t even rise to nit-picking. It is instead just playing dumb and engaging in a literal interpretation in order to distract. It is equivalent to saying of someone who is gasping for breath, “Well, you’re still _gasping_, aren’t you?!?!?” It is an argument that only a child would honestly try to advance. ETA: Tell me honestly, how do you interpret “I can’t breathe”? If your child were to say “I can’t breathe,” would you respond, “Let me know when there’s a real problem?” Or perhaps, “Just signal me when you actually stop!” ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/40 "2014-12-04T13:50:22Z")
It is not “factually correct,” because it [del]deliberately[/del]\* misunderstands the statement and applies a definition of “breathe” that was never in it, as all normal humans understand. - uncertain [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=3)