# Why wasn't the police officer who killed Eric Garner indicted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271 "2014-12-04T00:06:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/441 "2014-12-08T20:14:59Z")
> [@treis](#): > > :smack: > > Lying on your side is not prone. Take it up with the ME. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/442 "2014-12-08T20:15:59Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Ah yes, the mythical something else. I believe this is usually the point in the movie where the officer starts pounding on the dying man’s chest and yelling “DON’T YOU DIE ON ME YOU SON OF A BITCH! YOU’VE NEVER GIVEN UP BEFORE, DON’T YOU DARE GIVE UP ON ME NOW!” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/443 "2014-12-08T20:16:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I would not have objected if Pitts had been shot. For writing an article? I think you mean Houseman. If so, then this seems to be an admission from you that the protests over disparate treatment by police of black people are legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/444 "2014-12-08T20:22:16Z")
[From the](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/second-tape-of-nypd-chokehold-raises-new-questions-in-eric-garner-case/) union president for EMTs and paramedics in NY: > [@](#): > > CBS News called the union president for EMTs and paramedics, Israel Miranda, who said that based on the video, more should have been done. > > “There was a lack of initial intervention,” Miranda said. “They were not aggressive. If they’re not breathing, assist with their ventilation. This is something that is ingrained in your training.” ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/445 "2014-12-08T20:22:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > According to the MEs, the prone position contributed to his death. Getting him up might have prevented his death. Yes, the prone position during his arrest. When they subdued Garner, they put him on his side. Which, despite your stubbornly held ignorance, is not prone and is, in fact, the best position for people having difficulty breathing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/446 "2014-12-08T20:24:55Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Yes, the prone position during his arrest. When they subdued Garner, they put him on his side. Which, despite your stubbornly held ignorance, is not prone and is, in fact, the best position for people having difficulty breathing. Please cite that this is the “best position” for someone having difficulty breathing – better than sitting up or upright. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/447 "2014-12-08T20:30:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Please cite that this is the “best position” for someone having difficulty breathing – better than sitting up or upright. > [@](#): > > If a person is unconscious but is breathing and has no other life-threatening conditions, they should be placed in the recovery position. [http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Accidents-and-first-aid/Pages/The-recovery-position.aspx](http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Accidents-and-first-aid/Pages/The-recovery-position.aspx) > [@iiandiiii](#): > > From the union president for EMTs and paramedics in NY: > Quote: > CBS News called the union president for EMTs and paramedics, Israel Miranda, who said that based on the video, more should have been done. > > “There was a lack of initial intervention,” Miranda said. “They were not aggressive. If they’re not breathing, assist with their ventilation. This is something that is ingrained in your training.” They, in this case, refers to the EMTs, not the cops. And it’s a puzzling comment because Garner was breathing. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/448 "2014-12-08T20:33:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > For writing an article? I think you mean Houseman. If so, then this seems to be an admission from you that the protests over disparate treatment by police of black people are legitimate. White people should not be treated any better than black people are. If they’re being given a pass on crimes black people are vigorously pursued for, then that needs to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/449 "2014-12-08T20:33:53Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I merely point out that it makes a certain amount of sense for the test to be the same - that is, if an officer lacks “probably cause” because of a mistake in law (as opposed to fact), they would potentially be liable civilly or criminally - though obviously in the latter case the excercise of presecutorial discretion would, I would imagine, preclude filing of charges in all but the most egregious cases; hence one would expect that the number of such cases would be vanishingly small (as opposed to cases in which evidence is thrown out or the like). No – because the bar to criminal liability is properly placed much higher than that for which civil liability attaches. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/450 "2014-12-08T20:34:15Z")
> [@treis](#): > > See it’s comments like this that make me wonder about people. In the video I saw, the cops put Garner on his side and monitored his breathing. That’s exactly what they are supposed to do and all they would be capable of. What exactly do you think they should have done? I didn’t notice anyone attempting to “monitor his breathing”. The one EMT (female) seemed to be making a half-hearted attempt to check a pulse, however, but she didn’t take any step to check his airway or whether he was breathing properly. The dude was unconscious. Treis, I hope you or yours never need medical assistance in a situation where law enforcement is present, let alone where the police are the ones who created the need for it. Evidently, you’ve got no problem with EMTs and police standing around twiddling instead of getting you to a hospital. I don’t know what NYPD policy is in particular, but if there is no protocol requiring medical aid in a situation that wasn’t volatile such that it was impossible, that would be remarkable. (I can see it if a policy says they don’t have to continue rendering aid when a “higher authority” in terms of medical personnel arrive at the scene, but in this case that won’t give the city cover in the face of a civil lawsuit. All government workers in this scenario behaved poorly, and I’d find it ironic if any EMT was charged with criminal nonfeasance for standing there all but picking their noses while someone suffocated to death/to the point where they went into cardiac arrest.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/451 "2014-12-08T20:35:45Z")
> [@treis](#): > > [http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Accidents-and-first-aid/Pages/The-recovery-position.aspx](http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Accidents-and-first-aid/Pages/The-recovery-position.aspx) They didn’t put him in the “recovery position” – they just rolled him onto his side. > [@](#): > > They, in this case, refers to the EMTs, not the cops. And it’s a puzzling comment because Garner was breathing. How do you know he was breathing? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/452 "2014-12-08T20:37:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > White people should not be treated any better than black people are. If they’re being given a pass on crimes black people are vigorously pursued for, then that needs to stop. Do you believe this might be the case? If so, are you joining the protesters? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/453 "2014-12-08T20:37:56Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > A common misconception is that a choke hold is like making someone hold their breath, causing them to eventually pass out. But that’s not the case. A vascular choke hold actually cuts off blood flow to the brain, which can cause brain damage and death very quickly. It’s an extremely dangerous thing to do, and should never be used in less than a life-threatening situation. I haven’t seen the video, so I’m asking to learn. Wasn’t the choke hold basically the same as what’s called a rear naked choke? That cuts off the blood flow to the brain and results in unconsciousness pretty quickly. If it’s released as soon as the person loses consciousness, is it really that dangerous? The RNC is used in mixed martial arts all the time, and I didn’t know that it would be considered dangerous (if released). From the info I’ve been reading in this thread, unconsciousness was not the issue in Garner’s death. Did he even ever go out? Breathing was an issue, but the rear naked choke doesn’t restrict breathing. I know from other cases in the past that keeping a person handcuffed chest-down is very dangerous and police shouldn’t do that any more, and it sounds like that may have been a factor at the beginning, but they turned him on his side, which treis says doesn’t have that problem. Please tell me again why we think the choke hold was a factor in his death? Rather than having several officers on top of him when he was cuffed chest-down, combined with his existing medical condition? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/454 "2014-12-08T20:41:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [From the](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/second-tape-of-nypd-chokehold-raises-new-questions-in-eric-garner-case/) union president for EMTs and paramedics in NY: From your same link: > [@](#): > > An official from the police union disputes those findings and said officers were correct in turning Garner on his side and immediately calling an ambulance for help. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/455 "2014-12-08T20:50:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you believe this might be the case? If so, are you joining the protesters? No, because I don’t affiliate with terrorists. The “protests” that occurred in my town over the weekend consisted of a bunch of people running out into the street by the freeway on-ramp, then lying down in the road, blocking traffic and causing a major backup on the interstate until the police arrived to disperse them. That is not how civilized people behave. Not that I expected much more from the “activists” in a town that’s _proud_ of the fact that one of its native daughters was so lacking in common sense that she decided to hie off to Palestine and lie on the ground in front of a bulldozer. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/456 "2014-12-08T20:57:06Z")
> [@Fallen](#): > > I didn’t notice anyone attempting to “monitor his breathing”. 😕 There were two cops there watching him. One was clearly watching his face and checking every so often to see if he was breathing. > [@Fallen](#): > > The one EMT (female) seemed to be making a half-hearted attempt to check a pulse, however, but she didn’t take any step to check his airway or whether he was breathing properly. The dude was unconscious. > > Treis, I hope you or yours never need medical assistance in a situation where law enforcement is present, let alone where the police are the ones who created the need for it. Evidently, you’ve got no problem with EMTs and police standing around twiddling instead of getting you to a hospital. They. Were. Doing. Everything. They. Could. I’ll ask again, what specifically do you think the cops should have done that they didn’t? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > They didn’t put him in the “recovery position” – they just rolled him onto his side. Which is the closest you can get with someone who’s been handcuffed. I’m not sure why you continue to argue this. It’s clear you don’t know what you’re talking about. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How do you know he was breathing? The cop says so in the video. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/457 "2014-12-08T20:59:20Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Please tell me again why we think the choke hold was a factor in his death? Rather than having several officers on top of him when he was cuffed chest-down, combined with his existing medical condition? The coroner’s report. > [@](#): > > It was a homicide — and the chokehold killed him. > > Eric Garner, the Staten Island dad who complained that he couldn’t breathe as he was subdued by cops, died from compression of the neck, the medical examiner said Friday. > > The autopsy also found that compressions to the chest and “prone positioning during physical restraint by police” killed Garner. The manner of death, according to the medical examiner, was homicide. > **[HOMICIDE: Medical examiner says NYPD chokehold killed Staten Island dad Eric...](https://www.nydailynews.com/2014/08/02/homicide-medical-examiner-says-nypd-chokehold-killed-staten-island-dad-eric-garner/)** > > It was a homicide — and the chokehold killed him. Eric Garner, the Staten Island dad who complained that he couldn’t breathe as he was subdued by cops, died from compression of the neck… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/458 "2014-12-08T21:10:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, because I don’t affiliate with terrorists… “Terrorists”? Da fuq da madder witchyu? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/459 "2014-12-08T21:36:55Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The coroner’s report. > > > [@](#): > > > > It was a homicide — and the chokehold killed him. > > > > Eric Garner, the Staten Island dad who complained that he couldn’t breathe as he was subdued by cops, died from compression of the neck, the medical examiner said Friday. > > > > The autopsy also found that compressions to the chest and “prone positioning during physical restraint by police” killed Garner. The manner of death, according to the medical examiner, was homicide. Does that strike anyone else as conflicting? What I’m wondering is this: the rear naked choke can be very dangerous if it’s not released soon after the person loses consciousness, because it severely restricts blood flow to the brain. But if it’s released before losing consciousness or even soon thereafter, the RNC seems to me to be not particularly dangerous. I can see why the police would be told not to use it, because of the risk of an agitated officer holding it for too long after the person goes out. But being cuffed while prone, especially with other people on your back, is known to be dangerous. This, together with the conflicting ME/autopsy statements, make me wonder why the choke hold is the focus of all the attention. I’m not trying to defend the police action, because it sounds like they escalated way too quickly for the situation, but why is the outrage focused on the choke hold? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/460 "2014-12-08T22:23:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, because I don’t affiliate with terrorists. By this definition, many of the Civil Rights protests in the 60s were “terrorists”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=24)