# Why wasn't the police officer who killed Eric Garner indicted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271 "2014-12-04T00:06:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/461 "2014-12-08T22:24:45Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Which is the closest you can get with someone who’s been handcuffed. And those handcuffs were magical and could not be undone once closed. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure why you continue to argue this. It’s clear you don’t know what you’re talking about. No u > [@](#): > > The cop says so in the video. And other witnesses say that he wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/462 "2014-12-08T22:56:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > By this definition, many of the Civil Rights protests in the 60s were “terrorists”. I don’t recall Martin Luther King telling the crowd in Washington to “burn this bitch down”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/463 "2014-12-08T23:02:13Z")
An “Occupy” terrorist is a creature similar to an Unitarian fanatic. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/464 "2014-12-08T23:08:09Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The coroner’s report. > [HOMICIDE: Medical examiner says NYPD chokehold killed Staten Island dad Eric Garner – New York Daily News](http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/eric-garner-death-ruled-homicide-medical-examiner-article-1.1888808) That odd. Your link doesn’t lead to a coroner’s report. Is that the opinion of the Daily News reporters, Barry Paddock, Rocco Parascandola, and Corky Siemaszko, as to the cause of death or are they practicing cut-and-paste journalism? Has the actual coroners report been made public yet? According to the alleged opinions of Paddock, Parascandola, and Siemaszko (Oh, my!) - \*The Staten Island district attorney’s office said they had been in touch with the medical examiner. “We await the issuance of the official death certificate and the autopsy report,” an office statement read. “The investigation into Mr. Garner’s death continues.” The autopsy determined the victim’s asthma, obesity and high blood pressure were also contributing factors in his death. \* From the same link story you posted. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/465 "2014-12-08T23:18:26Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > …This, together with the conflicting ME/autopsy statements, make me wonder why the choke hold is the focus of all the attention. I’m not trying to defend the police action, because it sounds like they escalated way too quickly for the situation, but why is the outrage focused on the choke hold? (post shortened) Maybe people are being instructed to focus outrage on the choke hold??? Or maybe it’s a personal choice to focus outrage on the choke hold??? Garner had a lot of existing medical problems. Garner knew the arrest procedure. He’d been arrested often enough. Garner knew he was in poor health. Garner’s decision to resist arrest doesn’t make any sense, and yet, that’s what he chose to do. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/466 "2014-12-08T23:22:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t recall Martin Luther King telling the crowd in Washington to “burn this bitch down”. When one person says a bad thing, that makes all the protesters terrorists? In all likelihood, at some point during the Civil Rights protests, someone said something bad. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/467 "2014-12-08T23:27:06Z")
The reason the choke hold is focused on is because its use by NYPD officers had been explicitly forbidden for a number of years. The reason for outrage in general is because police offices are killing large numbers of people. Black people. Unarmed black people. Screw the ever-ready extenuating circumstances. Stop the killing. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/468 "2014-12-08T23:53:05Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > The reason the choke hold is focused on is because its use by NYPD officers had been explicitly forbidden for a number of years. > > The reason for outrage in general is because police offices are killing large numbers of people. Black people. Unarmed black people. > > Screw the ever-ready extenuating circumstances. Stop the killing. Did you forget to mention that people of other skin colors are also being killed when attacking police officers, resisting arrest, breaking the law, etc.? Maybe Garner should not have resisted arrest? Garner must have known just how bad his overall heath was. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/469 "2014-12-09T04:27:48Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > That odd. Your link doesn’t lead to a coroner’s report. > > Is that the opinion of the Daily News reporters, Barry Paddock, Rocco Parascandola, and Corky Siemaszko, as to the cause of death or are they practicing cut-and-paste journalism? Has the actual coroners report been made public yet? > > According to the alleged opinions of Paddock, Parascandola, and Siemaszko (Oh, my!) … I haven’t seen the report online anywhere but many news organizations including CNN have a full copy and have reached exactly the same conclusions. So did the Columbia Law School which had this to say on the question of [whether there was probable cause to indict for criminal homicide](http://web.law.columbia.edu/social-justice/forum-on-police-accountability/facts/faqs-eric-garner): > [@](#): > > Yes. > > First, the Medical Examiner for the City of New York conducted an autopsy and concluded that Garner died from compression of the neck. The cause of death was determined to be asphyxiation by chokehold. > > Second, the video evidence shows, and the Medical Examiner report confirms, that a chokehold was used throughout the encounter between Mr. Garner and the police officers including Pantaleo. The video evidence, widely available on various media and websites, shows that at the outset of the encounter between Mr. Garner and the five officers, Officer Pantaleo used force in the form of a chokehold to subdue Mr. Garner while placing him on the ground. > > Once subdued, however, the video shows that Officer Pantaleo continued to apply force using a chokehold to Mr. Garner while he was on the ground. Throughout this time, both before and after Mr. Garner was on the ground, he repeatedly said “I can’t breathe.” He said this audibly 11 times during the encounter before Mr. Garner lost consciousness. > > Although Officer Pantaleo was permitted by law to “reasonably” use “necessary force” to effectuate the arrest of Mr. Garner, once Mr. Garner was on the ground and subdued, and while he repeatedly stated that he could not breathe, the continued use of force was objectively unreasonable. The standard on justification for police officers in New York under NYPL §35.30 is an objective one. Reasonableness is to be determined from the perspective of a reasonable police officer on the scene. In this case, once the suspect was subdued and no longer resisting, the continued application of force may have become unreasonable. This would be a question for a trial jury. > [@doorhinge](#): > > Maybe Garner should not have resisted arrest? Garner must have known just how bad his overall heath was. I guess the moral of the story is: unless you are a battle-hardened ninja in superb physical condition, do NOT ever argue with a police officer – he might kill you. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/470 "2014-12-09T04:50:20Z")
One thing I have wondered about that I didn’t see referenced anywhere in this discussion (though I might have missed it) is why police were arresting Garner at all, since it appears he wasn’t actually even selling illegal cigarettes at the time or doing anything else wrong, and furthermore even if he had been, it seems like the kind of minor offense that could be ticketed. And there was certainly nothing there that seemed to warrant a response by a whole team of officers. The link in my previous post from the Columbia Law School offers a clue (it’s right near the end): > [@](#): > > The police officers were engaged in “broken windows policing” and were arresting Mr. Garner for a “quality-of-life” offense, the sale of individual cigarettes. No alternatives to arrest were employed in the encounter with Mr. Garner. There is no reliable evidence that “broken windows policing” is an effective law enforcement strategy. “Broken windows policing” was introduced under former Mayor Rudy Giuliani and his first police commissioner, William Bratton, in 1994. It resulted in a 68% increase in allegations of police misconduct to the CCRB over the following three years. “Broken windows policing” was reintroduced under Mayor de Blasio and his police commissioner, William Bratton, in 2014. My understanding is that “broken windows policing” is the strategy of dealing aggressively with relatively minor crime on the theory that maintaining public order promotes an environment that prevents more serious crime from occurring. In one sense I can see the logic of this. I can also see why it’s controversial, and that there are both good and bad ways of going about it. What I found most disturbing in reading a bit about it was the “stop, frisk, question” tactic that is part of some implementations of this, and which appears to be what the New York cops were doing to Garner, even though he had apparently done nothing wrong at the time. If not used with great discretion this is tantamount to officially sanctioned harassment which can easily become racially targeted, and what strikes me in particular is that it’s the exact diametric opposite of the spirit of community-friendly policing in which police are explicitly instructed to NOT do this. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/471 "2014-12-09T04:55:26Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I haven’t seen the report online anywhere but many news organizations including CNN have a full copy and have reached exactly the same conclusions. So did the Columbia Law School which had this to say on the question of [URL=“[http://web.law.columbia.edu/social-justice/forum-on-police-accountability/facts/faqs-eric-garner](http://web.law.columbia.edu/social-justice/forum-on-police-accountability/facts/faqs-eric-garner)”]whether there was probable cause to indict for criminal homicide (post shortened) I understand that CNN is now known for pulling information out of it’s thin air but is it considered the normal practice of Columbia Law School professors to reference Associated Press articles instead of quoting directly from the medical examiner’s report? \*Was there probable cause to indict for criminal homicide occurred? Yes. First, the Medical Examiner for the City of New York conducted an autopsy and concluded that Garner died from compression of the neck.[9] The cause of death was determined to be asphyxiation by chokehold.[10] …Notes - [9] Associated Press, supra note 6 [10] Id.\* ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/472 "2014-12-09T05:01:11Z")
What led to choke hold death \*…But the larger question remains: Why was a team of six officers enforcing an almost laughably low-level crime like selling loose cigarettes for 50 cents apiece? The answer lies in New York’s dramatically successful experiment with battling an out-of-control crime wave in the early 1990s, much of it built on a “broken windows” theory first developed by criminologists George Kelling and the late James Q. Wilson and laid out in a famous 1982 Atlantic Monthly magazine article. The idea is shorthand for a phenomenon known to sociologists: Leaving an otherwise safe building with an unfixed broken window signals to criminals that nobody cares about the property, which quickly becomes a haven for prostitution, drug dealing and serious crimes. With murders back then hitting more than 2,000 per year, NYPD cops were told by Bratton to stop waiting for the next 911 call and tasked with enforcing seemingly minor “quality of life” matters like public urination, panhandling and vandalism that made people feel unsafe. The strategy provided an immediate payoff. Cops doing quality-of-life patrols in the subways discovered that people jumping the turnstile (entering without paying) often turned out to have drugs, guns or outstanding warrants. Most turnstile-jumpers weren’t dangerous felons, but it turned out that dangerous felons often didn’t bother to pay the fare. So enforcing small violations helped catch truly dangerous criminals. Even more important, when streets and subways began to feel safer, more people used them – and the very presence of more law-abiding citizens always acts as a deterrent to crime (it creates more witnesses who are likely to point out the bad guys to cops or actually intervene to stop certain kinds of crimes)\*. [http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/22/opinion/louis-garner-broken-windows/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/22/opinion/louis-garner-broken-windows/index.html)? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/473 "2014-12-09T06:04:06Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I understand that CNN is now known for pulling information out of it’s thin air … _Today, [we obtained a full copy of Eric Garner’s autopsy report](http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2014/12/05/what-does-eric-garners-autopsy-tell-us/). Anderson walked through the findings along with the video of Garner’s arrest with forensic scientist Lawrence Kobilinsky and emergency medicine physician Dr. Sampson Davis._ Just because you don’t like the information doesn’t mean it isn’t true. > [@doorhinge](#): > > \*…But the larger question remains: Why was a team of six officers enforcing an almost laughably low-level crime like selling loose cigarettes for 50 cents apiece? > > The answer lies in New York’s dramatically successful experiment with battling an out-of-control crime wave in the early 1990s, much of it built on a “broken windows” theory first developed by criminologists George Kelling and the late James Q. Wilson and laid out in a famous 1982 Atlantic Monthly magazine article. “Broken windows” policing is just what I talked about upthread, except that I pointed out that it has disturbing downsides, unlike your predictable enthusiastic endorsement, or the CNN opinion piece claiming it’s been “dramatically successful” when in fact crime rates have been dropping all over the country because of demographic changes, when in fact the Columbia Law School piece states that there is “no reliable evidence that ‘broken windows policing’ is an effective law enforcement strategy” and that “it resulted in a 68% increase in allegations of police misconduct to the CCRB over the following three years”. [Here is the exact opposite approach](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-police-face-new-restrictions-on-carding-1.2621491) that’s working a lot better – that emphasizes community-friendly policing instead of murdering citizens: > [@](#): > > The Toronto Police Services Board has voted unanimously to approve a new carding policy that limits when officers can document people on the street. > > Under the new rules, officers will need a reason relating to an actual occurrence or a series of occurrences before stopping someone on the street. > > Police officers will have to provide a receipt for each interaction with their name and badge number, as well as the reason for contact. > > … “Now they have to be involved in a specific investigation and police simply can’t go up to anybody and start peppering them with questions … It’s a good policy. It needs to be researched, reviewed and tinkered with, but by-and-large it’s a very good policy.” > > Deputy Chief of Police Peter Sloly said that the new policy “matches up very closely” with 31 recommendations for improving community engagement included in an internal report commissioned by Chief Bill Blair in March 2012. Sloly says the TPS has successfully implemented 12 of those 31 recommendations to date. > > Sloly said it’s clear that there has been a steady “erosion of trust” between the public and the police force in the past decade. > > “We are losing trust and we need to do everything we can to rebuild that trust, especially in the communities most at risk,” Sloly said. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/474 "2014-12-09T12:34:25Z")
(reposted from the Pit thread) Police shootings in Philadelphia have [dropped precipitously](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20141126_Police_policies_cut_deadly_shootings.html#R5fJHdBvppaTkP47.99) this year, largely due to a “shake-up” in training and tactics. This is just one example, and one year, but it might show that cops can adequately protect themselves while shooting and killing fewer people. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/475 "2014-12-09T14:55:40Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > _Today we obtained a full copy of Eric Garner’s autopsy report. Anderson walked through the findings along with the video of Garner’s arrest with forensic, scientist Lawrence Kobilinsky and emergency medicine physician Dr. Sampson Davis._ > > Just because you don’t like the information doesn’t mean it isn’t true. What information? You’re being fed filtered autopsy information supplied by AP, CNN, and two law professors. I would prefer to see the actual autopsy report. What information are you using? AP publishes their version of the autopsy report. Two law professors use the AP version of the autopsy report to substantiate their version of the autopsy report. Other media outlets quote either, or both, of the popular versions of the autopsy report. Everything/anything but the actual autopsy report. It’s not a matter of whether or not I like the information in the actual autopsy report, I prefer to see the actual autopsy report. YMMV. (p.s. The CNN video at your linked website didn’t run. Maybe the site is currently busy? 😕 ) ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/476 "2014-12-09T15:10:12Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > …“Broken windows” policing is just what I talked about upthread, except that I pointed out that it has disturbing downsides, unlike your predictable enthusiastic endorsement, or the CNN opinion piece claiming it’s been “dramatically successful” when in fact crime rates have been dropping all over the country because of demographic changes, when in fact the Columbia Law School piece states that there is “no reliable evidence that ‘broken windows policing’ is an effective law enforcement strategy” and that “it resulted in a 68% increase in allegations of police misconduct to the CCRB over the following three years”. NYC’s Time Square was considered something of a Mos Eisley Spaceport. (“You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.) Programs like NYPD’s “Broken Windows” policy made it clear to the criminal element that they would be facing a much higher chance of being arrested if they continued to operate in the area. And then, as if by magic, the crime level dropped. Businesses were encouraged to invest in the area. Locals and tourists returned to the area and spent money. “Broken Windows” has obviously been a complete failure :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/477 "2014-12-09T15:44:09Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > [Here is the exact opposite approach](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-police-face-new-restrictions-on-carding-1.2621491) that’s working a lot better – that emphasizes community-friendly policing instead of murdering citizens: I’m in Toronto, and it should be pointed out that the recent Toronto policing intitiatives were in response to a history of scandals concerning violence against minorities and allegations of racial profilings and police bias. This lead to a major shake-up in policing a few years ago, headed by the so-caller PACER Report. Lots of detail here: [http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/pacer/](http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/pacer/) Here is a more user-friendly explaination: [http://tpsnews.ca/stories/2014/07/fair-policing-not-black-and-white/](http://tpsnews.ca/stories/2014/07/fair-policing-not-black-and-white/) It is of note that the new approach is heavily based on “community policing” strategies (that is, having individual cops get to know the neighbourhoods they work in), and the widespread use of body cameras. Also, that addressing issues of bias in policing is front and centre. In light of what is happening down south, it will be interesting to see the results of this large-scale initative. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/478 "2014-12-09T16:24:29Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Businesses were encouraged to invest in the area. Locals and tourists returned to the area and spent money. “Broken Windows” has obviously been a complete failure :rolleyes: Where did I say that cleaning up Times Square was a bad idea? Or that when neighborhoods deteriorate, that law enforcement shouldn’t be involved in its rehabilitation? Your example illustrates nothing about proper and ethical law enforcement or about the point I was making. Some aspects of “broken window policing”, and specifically the way some New York cops have been abusing its guidelines, leads to harassment, police abuses (68% more allegations of police misconduct since NYPD introduced the policy), poor community relations, and apparently sometimes the murder of a citizen. Please re-read what I posted in #473 about the new Toronto Police Services guidelines, which are the exact opposite of “broken window policing” and yet are specifically intended to apply to the rehabilitation of troubled neighborhoods which is precisely where police abuses and police-community conflicts most often occur. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Police shootings in Philadelphia have [dropped precipitously](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20141126_Police_policies_cut_deadly_shootings.html#R5fJHdBvppaTkP47.99) this year, largely due to a “shake-up” in training and tactics. This is just one example, and one year, but it might show that cops can adequately protect themselves while shooting and killing fewer people. Cleveland police apparently have [an endemic problem with excessive violence, too](http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/08/opinion/cevallos-justice-department-cleveland-police/index.html?hpt=hp_t3), and this isn’t the first time that the Justice Department has tried to deal with it. Police overreaction and excessive force seems to be a common problem. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/479 "2014-12-09T18:03:26Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The “non-crimes” part of **Martin Hyde’s** horrible quote is what sticks out to me. > > Black Americans have always been victims of “non-crimes”. Slavery was 300 years of a “non-crime”. As was 90 years of Jim Crow. The Montgomery Bus boycott was inspired by a “non-crime”. Voting disenfranchisement was also a non-crime. > > History has shown us that when people stay quiet about “non-crimes”, nothing changes. Black people would still be sitting in the back of the bus, stuck in segregated schools, discriminated from employment, and lynched for registering to vote if it hadn’t been for all those “screaming imbeciles” marching in the streets during the 50s and 60s. And society would be all the worse for everyone. Including sanctimonious white guys with a huge chip on their shoulder. > > Personally, I don’t care if the cops didn’t break any laws while taking down Garner. The lawfulness of their behavior doesn’t matter to me as much as the corrupted system that keeps allowing it to go unchallenged. The difference between all of those examples is they were legal situations that either deprived blacks of liberty or prohibited blacks from exercising the same rights as whites; versus the current example where you believe because a black person is involved core constitutional protections involving criminal trials should be removed to insure that the evil white cops go to prison. You don’t get to take away core constitutional rights just because 150 years ago some people were forced to pick cotton. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/480 "2014-12-09T18:09:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Emphasis added. Do you not see the glaring contradiction in your post, **Martin** , even if we accept, for the sake of argument, that your first sentence is on point? Nope, and I knew or at least hoped it would be commented on. When a group of people don’t want to treat situations as individual events that need to be analyzed on their merits, but instead situations where we must assume “white cop bad” “black suspect good” they’re choosing not to be evaluated as individuals and thus deserve collective condemnation. Not everything is an individual situation. Some things should be evaluated/opposed collectively, and some shouldn’t. Any use of police force is a highly individualized situation, that should be judged on its individual merits. In fact, the criminal justice system in general is quite properly only set up to deal with individualized scenarios. No two frauds are alike, no two homicides etc. They need to be adjudicated on the individual merits. If people were just advocating for systemic changes to try and fix ways in which the justice system as a whole perhaps is not equitable, that’s one thing, but people are actually protesting here demanding that individual police officers go to prison in contravention to the legal system. And that’s a serious problem, enough that we need to look at this imbecilic collective lynch mob mentality and denounce it in the strongest terms. Now, do I think all blacks necessarily have this group think opinion? No, but these people are putting themselves out there as representatives of the black community and aside from Charles Barkley I’ve not heard many other voices contradicting it. It’s similar to the people who whine about Muslim extremists or Republican extremists even, being portrayed as representative of the whole. The loudest voice will fairly be used to judge the entire group, it is the group’s responsibility to silence that voice if it is truly not representative. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=25)