# Why wasn't the police officer who killed Eric Garner indicted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271 "2014-12-04T00:06:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/481 "2014-12-09T18:09:48Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The difference between all of those examples is they were legal situations that either deprived blacks of liberty or prohibited blacks from exercising the same rights as whites; versus the current example where you believe because a black person is involved core constitutional protections involving criminal trials should be removed to insure that the evil white cops go to prison. You don’t get to take away core constitutional rights just because 150 years ago some people were forced to pick cotton. The protesters (or many of them) believe that the current situation is a “legal situation that deprives blacks of liberty” or prevents blacks from exercising the same rights as whites. If, in fact, some significant amount of cops and/or parts of the justice system in general treat black people differently because they’re black, then I think they might be correct. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/482 "2014-12-09T18:12:06Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Agreed - so why remove the possibility of arguing legitimate self-defence in those minority of cases where it is justified? I don’t generally have a strong opinion on it, I was merely offering up what I believe the explanation is–that legislators don’t want people fighting the police, even when the police are legally on the wrong. I think there’s compelling arguments on both sides of that. I’d certainly want to resist nefarious government action if directed at me, but I also am not a big fan of people fighting the State. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/483 "2014-12-09T18:13:18Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > That’s what a trial is for. The purpose of a grand jury is only to determine whether there is sufficient evidence to warrant a trial. That’s what makes this outcome so disturbing, since it’s clear to most people that there was certainly evidence. Should a prosecutor go to trial if he/she believes they have no hope of victory? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/484 "2014-12-09T18:13:38Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Nope, and I knew or at least hoped it would be commented on. When a group of people don’t want to treat situations as individual events that need to be analyzed on their merits, but instead situations where we must assume “white cop bad” “black suspect good” they’re choosing not to be evaluated as individuals and thus deserve collective condemnation. You collectively condemned “black America”… e.g. all black people in America. > [@](#): > > If people were just advocating for systemic changes to try and fix ways in which the justice system as a whole perhaps is not equitable, that’s one thing Many protesters are in fact advocating for this. > [@](#): > > Now, do I think all blacks necessarily have this group think opinion? No, Then why did you collectively condemn “black America”? > [@](#): > > but these people are putting themselves out there as representatives of the black community When someone “puts themselves out there” as representatives of a community, that means it’s okay to collectively hold the community responsible for what that someone says or does? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/485 "2014-12-09T18:20:18Z")
It’s not like this country has not had extensive experience with the legal system that lets off white people who have committed heinous crimes against black people. Is this phenomenon really new to you? Or are asserting a core constitutional right on the part of law enforcement personnel to kill people? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/486 "2014-12-09T18:21:45Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > IMO, the cop should have been indicted. Also, I would demand a thorough examination of the training those cops get. The choke-hold was not an approved procedure, but I wonder if they are taught just how dangerous that hold is? I agree Garner should have been indicted just based on what we know (although the evidence we know about Garner is extremely limited versus what we know about Ferguson/Wilson.) I think there is clear negligence from leaving him prone while he essentially suffocated even if other aspects of the matter would be more difficult to prove. I also think in general prosecutors should not use the grand jury in this way for police. They need to either just openly say they cannot win the case and thus are declining to prosecute (part of their job), or they need to actually try the case, which means a “normal” grand jury process an a strenuous attempt at victory at trial. I think (again, extremely limited knowledge) the Garner case there has been a lot of evidence the officer’s lawyer has spoken about that would hurt any chance of conviction on the more serious types of homicide but there was definitely plain negligence on the video even aside from all that. In Ferguson I don’t believe there was any chance of conviction or proving any crime beyond reasonable doubt, and the prosecutor there should have declined to even present to a grand jury. > [@](#): > > Every year, numerous people die from choke holds. Mostly at the hands of bouncers in bars, I believe. We had two choke-hold deaths within a couple of years in the small city I grew up in, and in one case the bouncer was charged with manslaughter. > > A common misconception is that a choke hold is like making someone hold their breath, causing them to eventually pass out. But that’s not the case. A vascular choke hold actually cuts off blood flow to the brain, which can cause brain damage and death very quickly. It’s an extremely dangerous thing to do, and should never be used in less than a life-threatening situation. Yeah, time is a big thing. MMA refs stop fights immediately when they see a choke locked. For that reason I don’t believe anyone has ever died from a choke in MMA, even though it is a common move to end fights. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/487 "2014-12-09T18:38:44Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I don’t generally have a strong opinion on it, I was merely offering up what I believe the explanation is–that legislators don’t want people fighting the police, even when the police are legally on the wrong. > > I think there’s compelling arguments on both sides of that. I’d certainly want to resist nefarious government action if directed at me, but I also am not a big fan of people fighting the State. As a policy choice, I don’t think it makes much sense, as I don’t think that knowledge of this law is a motivator for people fighting or not fighting the cops. For one, that knowledge is not widespread. Mostly, this law will have an after-the-fact effect - that is, the fight has happened, and a suspect is (much later) being prosecuted for ‘resisting arrest’. The issue will be whether that prosecution is just or not. To my mind, it is unjust. If the police - guardians of the law, and so presumed to know it by way of their profession - get the law wrong, it is unjust to punish someone for defending themselves against what is an illegal confinement. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/488 "2014-12-09T18:52:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The protesters (or many of them) believe that the current situation is a “legal situation that deprives blacks of liberty” or prevents blacks from exercising the same rights as whites. They’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/489 "2014-12-09T18:53:26Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I also think in general prosecutors should not use the grand jury in this way for police. They need to either just openly say they cannot win the case and thus are declining to prosecute (part of their job), or they need to actually try the case, which means a “normal” grand jury process an a strenuous attempt at victory at trial. …Somehow I doubt that the people protesting and agitating would feel any better if the prosecutor had just said they weren’t even going to try for an indictment. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/490 "2014-12-09T18:55:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > They’re wrong. Or you are. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/491 "2014-12-09T18:57:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > They’re wrong. Such a terse statement is indicative of someone who is blinded by privilege. To claim that contact rates, arrest rates, charging rages and incarceration rates are colorblind has no basis in fact. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/492 "2014-12-09T19:03:53Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I agree Garner should have been indicted {…} Kinda hard to do that considering that he’s the, ya _should_ know, . . . dead guy. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/493 "2014-12-09T19:04:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > They’re wrong. To my mind, it doesn’t matter whether they are right or wrong - a breakdown of relations between the police and any community of the public those police are supposed to be serving and protecting is a failure of policing policy. As is acknowledged in other areas, the appearance or perception of bias is just as damaging as actual bias. This harms everyone, as a breakdown in relations makes policing less effective - and tends to have a self-reinforcing effect (if the community perceives the police as ‘the enemy’ they will be less likely to cooperate - and if the police receive less cooperation from a community, they will be more likely to exhibit bias). This is why the Toronto police, facing similar problems, elected to pursue the strategy outlined upthread. The key perception is that this isn’t an issue of laying blame for racism, but of eliminating a perception of bias - to stop the cycle of ‘us versus them’ mentality. Granted, the challenges are much greater in the US than in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/494 "2014-12-09T19:09:31Z")
If people don’t want the police to view them as their enemies, they should stop committing crimes. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/495 "2014-12-09T19:14:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If people don’t want the police to view them as their enemies, they should stop committing crimes. Aaaaaand vice-versa. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/496 "2014-12-09T19:32:54Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Aaaaaand vice-versa. The police should stop enforcing the law? I don’t follow. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/497 "2014-12-09T19:41:34Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Not everything is an individual situation. Some things should be evaluated/opposed collectively, and some shouldn’t. Any use of police force is a highly individualized situation, that should be judged on its individual merits. In this case, both actually apply. Collectively, there is evidence of a systemic problem of police abuses and violence, examples having been cited in this thread by myself and others. At the individual case level, competent and unbiased individuals have given their opinion that on its merits, there was sufficient evidence in this case to go to trial. In fact it’s actually hard to imagine anyone watching the video and thinking otherwise. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > If people were just advocating for systemic changes to try and fix ways in which the justice system as a whole perhaps is not equitable, that’s one thing, but people are actually protesting here demanding that individual police officers go to prison in contravention to the legal system. And that’s a serious problem, enough that we need to look at this imbecilic collective lynch mob mentality and denounce it in the strongest terms. Advocating for systemic changes is exactly the position that most people are articulating, including many of the comments here and many thoughtful opinion pieces and, I suspect, the majority of the protestors. I’m not concerned about some hypothetical minority that might be out there protesting regardless of the circumstances just because it was a white cop and a black victim – in this case, the circumstances justify the protests. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Should a prosecutor go to trial if he/she believes they have no hope of victory? Why would you assume that to be true in this case? Secondary questions: Should the prosecutor whose very job depends on a close and collaborative working relationship with the police even be involved in this decision? Is it not a flagrant conflict of interest for him to be responsible for guiding and instructing the grand jury when the accused is a police officer? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/498 "2014-12-09T19:48:33Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Yeah, time is a big thing. MMA refs stop fights immediately when they see a choke locked. For that reason I don’t believe anyone has ever died from a choke in MMA, even though it is a common move to end fights. No, refs do not do that. They only stop the fight if the fighter taps or is choked unconscious. The difference between an effective choke and an ineffective one is small, and somewhat difficult to determine visually. Here’s a couple examples of fighters being choked unconscious: > [@](#): > > The official time of stoppage was 4:59 of the first round, as referee Mark Smith stepped in to save Evans-Smith, who went unconscious as Pennington applied a bulldog choke. > **[UFC 181 results, photos: Raquel Pennington chokes out Ashlee Evans-Smith in...](https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2014/12/ufc-181-results-photos-raquel-pennington-chokes-out-ashlee-evans-smith-in-first)** > > LAS VEGAS – A small tactical mistake turned the lights out on UFC newcomer Ashlee Evans-Smith and brought triumph for Raquel Pennington. > [@](#): > > The look on Yancy Medeiros’ face as Jim Miller locked on an arm-in guillotine choke suggested that he didn’t know how he was going to get out of this one. > > Turns out he couldn’t, and when he failed to tap, the next stop was unconsciousness, resulting in a technical submission win for Miller at 3:18 of Round 1. > **[UFC 172 results and photos: Jim Miller chokes Yancy Medeiros unconscious in...](https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2014/04/ufc-172-results-and-photos-yancy-medeiros-vs-jim-miller)** > > BALTIMORE – The look on Yancy Medeiros’ face as Jim Miller locked on an arm-in guillotine choke suggested that he didn’t know how he was going to get out of this one. They didn’t die because MMA fighters typically aren’t morbidly obese with asthma. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/499 "2014-12-09T19:53:56Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Should the prosecutor whose very job depends on a close and collaborative working relationship with the police even be involved in this decision? Is it not a flagrant conflict of interest for him to be responsible for guiding and instructing the grand jury when the accused is a police officer? This may be a core question in the end. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/500 "2014-12-09T20:04:49Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > This may be a core question in the end. Again - the experience in Toronto may be useful. Here, where a police officer and a member of the public are involved in an incident that has resulted in an allegation of injury, death, or sexual assault, it is investigated by the “special investigations unit” (SIU) that is essentially a police-policing force. The SIU has the power to lay charges. However, this has not resulted in a perfect system - there are still allegations that the SIU is biased in favour of, or too deferential towards, the police. Allegedly, the situation has improved (somewhat) in that respect recently but is still far from perfect. [Special Investigations Unit - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Investigations_Unit) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=26)