# Why wasn't the police officer who killed Eric Garner indicted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271 "2014-12-04T00:06:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/41 "2014-12-04T13:54:53Z")
Every time I look at that video I get angrier. When the cops start trying to grab him, he asked them not to touch him and he moves his arms away. Then they swarm him and grab him by the neck. Did we ever hear them say that he was under arrest, **John**? If so, what crime was he being arrested for? Garner was adamant that he hadn’t sold anything and didn’t show any signs of guilt like running. Why does that not count for anything? What was the evidence for this arrest and why was an arrest necessary when he wasn’t trying to flee the scene and wasn’t posing any danger to anyone? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/42 "2014-12-04T14:07:44Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Every time I look at that video I get angrier. When the cops start trying to grab him, he asked them not to touch him and he moves his arms away. Then they swarm him and grab him by the neck. > > Did we ever hear them say that he was under arrest, **John**? If so, what crime was he being arrested for? Garner was adamant that he hadn’t sold anything and didn’t show any signs of guilt like running. Why does that not count for anything? What was the evidence for this arrest and why was an arrest necessary when he wasn’t trying to flee the scene and wasn’t posing any danger to anyone? OK, let’s assume that he wasn’t, in fact, breaking the law. However, the cops were trying to arrest him. Sometimes the cops make mistakes arresting people, but in no circumstances do you resist arrest in the USA. If you want to plead Civil Disobedience, you stay limp and make them do all the work. But you don’t fight with the cops. We can see that he resisted arrest. That has to be part of any legitimate summary of what happened. And once again I want to note that it still looks like excessive force, and I don’t see any justification for that used against a guy who is not suspected of a violent crime. We clearly need police procedures that allow them to arrest non-violent criminal suspects without endangering either the suspect or the cops. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/43 "2014-12-04T14:16:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, let’s assume that he wasn’t, in fact, breaking the law. However, the cops were trying to arrest him. Sometimes the cops make mistakes arresting people, but in no circumstances do you resist arrest in the USA. If you want to plead Civil Disobedience, you stay limp and make them do all the work. But you don’t fight with the cops. To my eye though, it looks like they simply attack him. The most he did to provoke that was say something like “take your hands off me”. The cops in the video never say 'you are under arrest. Please put your hands behind your back" or something like that. One moment they are sort of poking at him, the next they have him by the throat - it is little wonder he was “fighting” when, as we now know, they were literally _choking the life out of him_. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/44 "2014-12-04T14:26:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, let’s assume that he wasn’t, in fact, breaking the law. However, the cops were trying to arrest him. Did you hear them say he was under arrest? Or are you assuming he was being arrested because they tackled him? From what I could see, one cop asserted something that made him vehemently deny he was selling cigarettes. Then suddenly they swarmed him and tried to put him in cuffs. What do you think they could have charged him with if he was, in fact, innocent? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/45 "2014-12-04T14:27:53Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > When the cops start trying to grab him, he asked them not to touch him and he moves his arms away. And pushed the police officers’ arms away. IOW he was resisting arrest. > [@](#): > > Did we ever hear them say that he was under arrest, **John**? When a cop grabs you or otherwise detains your movements, you are legally under arrest. Unless you have a cite saying that one may resist a legal arrest until the arresting officers announce that you are under arrest verbally. (You don’t.) > [@](#): > > If so, what crime was he being arrested for? Selling unlicensed cigarettes. Garner was currently out on bail for the same offense, and had been previously arrested more than thirty times for offenses like assault, resisting arrest, grand larceny, driving without a license (and selling unlicensed cigarettes). > [@](#): > > Garner was adamant that he hadn’t sold anything and didn’t show any signs of guilt like running. Why does that not count for anything? Because he was lying, and he did show signs of guilt. like resisting arrest (again). The reason the police officer wasn’t indicted may be related to the fact that Garner was obese, and had high blood pressure, diabetes, heart disease, severe asthma, and thus his death was due at least as much to that (and compression on his torso, exacerbated by his morbid obesity) as to the “choke” hold. Keeping also in mind that an illegal “chokehold” according to NY police policy involves those holds which involve > [@](#): > > any pressure to the throat or windpipe, which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air. [Cite](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/nyregion/staten-island-man-dies-after-he-is-put-in-chokehold-during-arrest.html?_r=0http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/nyregion/staten-island-man-dies-after-he-is-put-in-chokehold-during-arrest.html?_r=0). The hold used to subdue Garner was not such a chokehold, since Garner as mentioned was able to speak. Instead it was one which produces pressure on the carotid sinus and vagus nerve, not asphyxia. Regards, Shodan PS - On the subject of the different kinds of chokes, my post is not my cite - thirty years of experience having experienced and applied both types is my cite. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/46 "2014-12-04T14:29:47Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > His death notwithstanding. Dude’s faking it. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/47 "2014-12-04T14:34:52Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] When a cop grabs you or otherwise detains your movements, you are legally under arrest. Unless you have a cite saying that one may resist a legal arrest until the arresting officers announce that you are under arrest verbally. [/QUOTE] You are the one making a claim, not me. Put up a cite that supports what you’re saying. Believe it or not, cops do not have free reign over our bodies. There’s a thing called the Law that they are expected to follow, just as we are. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/48 "2014-12-04T14:45:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And pushed the police officers’ arms away. IOW he was resisting arrest. > When a cop grabs you or otherwise detains your movements, you are legally under arrest. Unless you have a cite saying that one may resist a legal arrest until the arresting officers announce that you are under arrest verbally. (You don’t.) Is this in fact true - that _any_ move made by a police officer is, in fact, a legal “arrest” and no actual formalities are required? Looking at the laws of New York State, I’m not so sure this is the case: > [@](#): > > S 140.15 Arrest without a warrant; when and how made by police officer. > 1. A police officer may arrest a person for an offense, pursuant to > section 140.10, at any hour of any day or night. > 2. The arresting police officer must inform such person of his > authority and purpose and of the reason for such arrest unless he > encounters physical resistance, flight or other factors rendering such > procedure impractical. > 3. In order to effect such an arrest, such police officer may use > such physical force as is justifiable pursuant to section 35.30 of the > penal law. > 4. In order to effect such an arrest, a police officer may enter > premises in which he reasonably believes such person to be present, > under the same circumstances and in the same manner as would be > authorized, by the provisions of subdivisions four and five of section > 120.80, if he were attempting to make such arrest pursuant to a warrant > of arrest. > **[Article 140 Criminal Procedure Law | Arrest Without Warrant](https://ypdcrime.com/cpl/article140.php)** > > Arrest without warrant. Arrest by Police Officer. When, How arrst made. Procedure after arrest. Stop and Frisk. Search for weapons | NYS Laws The significant provision is subsection 2, which states as follows: > [@](#): > > 1. The arresting police officer must inform such person of his > authority and purpose and of the reason for such arrest unless he > encounters physical resistance, flight or other factors rendering such > procedure impractical. It appears to me that this procedure was not followed. The susperct was not informed of “… his authority and purpose and of the reason for such arrest …”. It is true that the same provision allows the police to omit this step if the encounter “physical resistance, flight or other factors rendering such procedure impractical”. This does not appear to be the case. There was no such “resistance” until _after the arrest was undertaken_. ---
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/49 "2014-12-04T14:48:20Z")
The left should be cheering his death. He was involved with cheating the state out of money - the highest of crimes. This and other recent events is the result of the left’s attempt to create utopia. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/50 "2014-12-04T14:49:51Z")
I don’t buy that he was resisting arrest. But even supposing he was, the cops’ response has to be proportional. Shoving someone away does not grant them immunity from prosecution for gang tackling you and choking you in such a way as results in your death. Some of you seem to believe that once one strays one iota from the path of complete and unquestioned immediate obedience to whatever someone with a badge tells you to do, that you have forfeited any expectation of coming out of the encounter alive. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/51 "2014-12-04T15:03:28Z")
As someone who is 100% in the Wilson camp on Brown I have to admit I can’t figure out why this didn’t at least go to trial. I haven’t read this whole thread and it may be covered already but from what I gather A) Chokeholds were outlawed and the police know it B) the guy was trying to tap out the whole time he was on the ground C) it’s on video and D) he was selling smokes and not really hurting anybody so why was there even a need to lay hands on the guy to begin with. Tough to get behind this one. As an aside I think that the Protesting Community around the nation that has put all their eggs in the Brown basket made a major mistake tying to that sinking ship since he pretty much deserved what he got in the end based on his actions. It kills all of their credibility. With that said there are 1000’s of other, more cut and dry, abuses of power by the police against African Americans every year they could have rallied against. This one would be a perfect example. Instead the police issue is counterbalanced by Brown’s actions so no one concedes any ground to either side. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/52 "2014-12-04T15:53:32Z")
So, really, its the protestor’s fault because they destroyed their credibility. You mind if we call you “Stretch”? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/53 "2014-12-04T16:09:37Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > The left should be cheering his death. He was involved with cheating the state out of money - the highest of crimes. > > This and other recent events is the result of the left’s attempt to create utopia. Cheating the state out of money is the highest of crimes? Keep off-topic, off-thread bullshit out of GD. At least save it for a thread where it might be vaguely relevant. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/54 "2014-12-04T16:09:50Z")
Rest assured that the grand jury found someone to indict in this murder- [the guy who filmed it.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/03/ramsey-orta-indictment-eric-garner_n_6264746.html) Yep, no planted evidence there, move right along and be sure to obey the police as if your life depends on it. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/55 "2014-12-04T16:33:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How about dying? Does that prove the assertion that he couldn’t breathe? Both CNN and FOX have shown videos of Garner’s wife, speaking at some recent press conference, saying that her husband told the police eleven times that he couldn’t breathe. Eleven times? That sounds like Garner could breathe. It’s reported that the coroner’s report mentions hemorrhaging in or around Garner’s neck. That hemorrhaging could have contributed to Garner’s death. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/56 "2014-12-04T16:36:46Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t buy that he was resisting arrest. But even supposing he was, the cops’ response has to be proportional. Shoving someone away does not grant them immunity from prosecution for gang tackling you and choking you in such a way as results in your death. Some of you seem to believe that once one strays one iota from the path of complete and unquestioned immediate obedience to whatever someone with a badge tells you to do, that you have forfeited any expectation of coming out of the encounter alive. Well, there is that video of Garner resisting arrest. The cops were trying to arrest Garner and Garner was resisting their efforts. That certainly looks like a clear cut case of resisting arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/57 "2014-12-04T16:38:06Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > A) Chokeholds were outlawed and the police know it Chokeholds aren’t “illegal” - they’re simply prohibited by NYPD guidelines. If the officer used a prohibited choke (and there appears to be some question as to whether he did) then he should be penalized appropriately, but that’s an administrative procedure, not a criminal one. > [@](#): > > B) the guy was trying to tap out the whole time he was on the ground This isn’t UFC. You don’t get to “tap out”. If you don’t want to be manhandle, don’t fight back when you’re under arrest. D) he was selling smokes and not really hurting anybody so why was there even a need to lay hands on the guy to begin with. He was a repeat offender who resisted arrest and was already out on bail on another charge of selling loose cigarettes. It’s nobody’s fault but his own that the situation escalated. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/58 "2014-12-04T16:38:56Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Rest assured that the grand jury found someone to indict in this murder- [the guy who filmed it.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/03/ramsey-orta-indictment-eric-garner_n_6264746.html) Yep, no planted evidence there, move right along and be sure to obey the police as if your life depends on it. Missing detail: > [@](#): > > a grand jury indicted Orta on weapons charges stemming from an arrest by undercover officers earlier that month. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/59 "2014-12-04T16:46:32Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > It doesn’t even rise to nit-picking. It is instead just playing dumb and engaging in a literal interpretation in order to distract. It is equivalent to saying of someone who is gasping for breath, “Well, you’re still _gasping_, aren’t you?!?!?” > > It is an argument that only a child would honestly try to advance. > > ETA: Tell me honestly, how do you interpret “I can’t breathe”? If your child were to say “I can’t breathe,” would you respond, “Let me know when there’s a real problem?” Or perhaps, “Just signal me when you actually stop!” Have you ever taken a first aid class? They’ll teach you not to perform first aid on someone who tells you they can’t breathe, because if they say they can’t breathe, they can breathe. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/60 "2014-12-04T16:50:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Have you ever taken a first aid class? They’ll teach you not to perform first aid on someone who tells you they can’t breathe, because if they say they can’t breathe, they can breathe. Strangely enough, my class didn’t teach me how to behave when I was choking someone. But I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t have included the instruction “let them lie there and die without summoning help”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=4)