# Why wasn't the police officer who killed Eric Garner indicted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271 "2014-12-04T00:06:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/601 "2014-12-12T16:53:41Z")
“Now”? Like, something is different, recently? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/602 "2014-12-12T16:54:37Z")
> [@andros](#): > > You…wait, seriously? Honestly, and with no offense intended, are you just fucking with us now? Of course he’s not fucking with you. That’s how it works. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/603 "2014-12-12T16:59:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Of course he’s not fucking with you. That’s how it works. For most of American history, it didn’t work this way – rights were acquired and protected by means other than voting, for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/604 "2014-12-12T17:00:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Of course he’s not fucking with you. That’s how it works. Except for the fact that it clearly does not? “Gosh, those folks with no political power should just _take_ it, as our Constitutional system allows!” Seriously, do you not recognize how facile that is? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/605 "2014-12-12T17:08:04Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Yes, Garner was arrested many, many times for violating the law. Yes, Garner earned income from criminal activities. That makes Garner a career criminal. And what crime was he committing or was reasonable believed to be committing _at the time_ he was placed in a chokehold, wrestled to the ground and had the cop continue to shove his face into the sidewalk. Or are you saying that if you are a career criminal the cops can arrest you at any time whether ot not you are currently committing a crime? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/606 "2014-12-12T17:10:22Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Except for the fact that it clearly does not? > > “Gosh, those folks with no political power should just _take_ it, as our Constitutional system allows!” > > Seriously, do you not recognize how facile that is? Who doesn’t have political power? As far as I’m aware, everyone except felons can vote, stand for election etc., and even felons have their congressmen who represent them. The problem is that so many people don’t _use_ that power - one of the things that came out of the Ferguson discussions was that less than 20% of eligible voters actually did vote. Now, if one of their own stood for election, and the 80% did vote for them, change could happen. It’s a democracy, with free speech. Everyone has political power, but for whatever reason many people choose not to use it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/607 "2014-12-12T17:11:52Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > And what crime was he committing or was reasonable believed to be committing _at the time_ he was placed in a chokehold, wrestled to the ground and had the cop continue to shove his face into the sidewalk? Assault on a police officer and/or resisting arrest. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/608 "2014-12-12T17:12:12Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s a democracy, with free speech. Everyone has political power, but for whatever reason many people choose not to use it. The protesters are choosing to use it in their protests. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/609 "2014-12-12T17:16:40Z")
I need this explained to me. Let’s assume that Garner’s weight had a major impact on him dying. I think that we can all agree that some or all of the chokehold, laying prone, sitting on his back, pushing his face into the cement, etc. precipitated his death. How does the eggshell skull doctrine NOT apply here? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/610 "2014-12-12T17:18:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The protesters are choosing to use it in their protests. It’s a shame that, really, when they could instead use it constructively. If as much energy was spent on actually getting people to vote, supporting people who’s views they agree with, and contacting their representatives, actual change might be happening. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/611 "2014-12-12T17:21:27Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > There’s no such thing. > > So, stand at a reasonable distance. Out of knife range, for example. (post shortened) - Some people disagree with your opinion and have written books on the subject. \*Inside the Criminal Mind Understanding the dark side of human conduct by Stanton E. Samenow, Ph.D. …Criminals have long terrorized individuals, groups, and nations. Again, through the Internet, the scope of their operations expands exponentially, and they can contact millions of potential recruits to join their terror organizations. However, even if the type of crime and modus operandi (“MO”) are new, the criminal’s basic thinking patterns and outlook in life do not change. In the revised 2014 edition of Inside the Criminal Mind, I take the reader on tour of the criminal mind and describe in detail the thought patterns at work. Criminals like the man who told me, “Crime is like ice cream; it’s delicious” find excitement in whatever is illicit and whatever facilitates conquests and a buildup of themselves. Shutting off fears of consequences and denying conscience, the criminal is heedless of the price that others pay for his adventures, whether the victim is an individual or a large corporation. “Take my crime away and you take my world away,” one offender declared, reflecting the timeless mentality that I have come to know so well over the decades of my research and clinical practice dealing with criminals\*. > **[Has the "Criminal Mind" Changed?](https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/inside-the-criminal-mind/201411/has-the-criminal-mind-changed)** > > The criminal mind is as it has always been. But it can operate on a much vaster and terrifying scale than in the past. > **[Stanton E. Samenow Ph.D.](https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/contributors/stanton-e-samenow-phd)** > > Stanton Samenow, Ph.D., an expert in criminal behavior, was the author of many books including Inside the Criminal Mind. - What do you consider to be “knife range” or a “reasonable” distance? 21 feet? 35 feet? The opposite side of the street? How do officers control a situation from hailing distance? - Are other countries police forces facing the same criminal mindset that U.S. police are facing? - Two days ago - A plainclothes police officer photographed aiming his gun at protesters in Oakland, California, on Wednesday was protecting himself and his partner from a “mob” that had encircled them, according to a California Highway Patrol official. [http://www.policeleak.com/undercover-police-officer-points-gun-at-california-protesters/](http://www.policeleak.com/undercover-police-officer-points-gun-at-california-protesters/) - Yes, Garner wanted to fight. Garner chose to resist arrest. Garner made the wrong choice. - Garner (and Brown) committed crimes and didn’t want to be arrested for committing those crimes. The protestors, looters, rioters, and arsonists are angry that criminals are being arrested. - Which culture? The culture that suggests it’s OK to commit crimes against store owners? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/612 "2014-12-12T17:22:36Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I need this explained to me. Let’s assume that Garner’s weight had a major impact on him dying. I think that we can all agree that some or all of the chokehold, laying prone, sitting on his back, pushing his face into the cement, etc. precipitated his death. How does the eggshell skull doctrine NOT apply here? It only applies to illegal uses of force. If the police’s use of force was legitimate, it doesn’t apply. If I push someone away in self defence, and they trip and fall on a sharp corner, fracture their skull and die, no crime. If I illegally punch them, and they likewise fall, manslaughter or murder. Basically, when acting legally one only has to consider the reasonable consequences of the action, not all possible ones. But when acting illegally, one is responsible for any and all consequences. I’m sure there’s vastly more nuance than that, but I think that’s the gist of it. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/613 "2014-12-12T17:23:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Assault on a police officer and/or resisting arrest. Wow! So putting your hands up and saying “Please don’t touch me.” is assault? And while technically the resisting arrest may have been grounds for the chokehold, what cause did they have to arrest him? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/614 "2014-12-12T17:25:05Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > And while technically the resisting arrest may have been grounds for the chokehold, what cause did they have to arrest him? Doesn’t matter. But I believe he was suspected of illegally selling untaxed cigarettes. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/615 "2014-12-12T17:25:58Z")
> [@andros](#): > > You…wait, seriously? Honestly, and with no offense intended, are you just fucking with us now? No, I’m not fucking with you. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/616 "2014-12-12T17:27:25Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s a shame that, really, when they could instead use it constructively. If as much energy was spent on actually getting people to vote, supporting people who’s views they agree with, and contacting their representatives, actual change might be happening. Plenty of the protesters are doing this as well. The voter registration efforts have been well publicized. Further, these kinds of protests have a pretty decent track record of success in the US. If policies change, then it will indeed have been very constructive. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/617 "2014-12-12T17:29:25Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Except for the fact that it clearly does not? > > “Gosh, those folks with no political power should just _take_ it, as our Constitutional system allows!” > > Seriously, do you not recognize how facile that is? Vote. This isn’t rocket surgery. You elect representatives and you should then expect those representatives to actually represent you. If they won’t represent you, then you elect others who will. Which explains the Democrats recent loss of the Senate. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/618 "2014-12-12T17:36:29Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > And what crime was he committing or was reasonable believed to be committing _at the time_ he was placed in a chokehold, wrestled to the ground and had the cop continue to shove his face into the sidewalk. > > Or are you saying that if you are a career criminal the cops can arrest you at any time whether ot not you are currently committing a crime? I’m saying that Garner’s history as a career criminal would make him very familiar with police arrest procedures. Police told him that they had witnesses him committing a crime. Garner relied that he didn’t do anything. One of the officers turned and pointed to someone in the crowd who Garner had just interacted with. Garner was told he was under arrest. When an officer grabbed Garner’s arm in order to handcuff him, Garner pulled away. That’s resisting arrest. Continued force was applied because Garner continued to struggle. Garner repeated the words, “I can’t breathe” 11 times. If you can’t breathe, you can’t talk. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/619 "2014-12-12T17:43:12Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Continued force was applied because Garner continued to struggle. Garner repeated the words, “I can’t breathe” 11 times. If you can’t breathe, you can’t talk. This is such a nonsense point. People say “I can’t breathe” because they don’t have time in between bouts of not breathing to say “a few seconds ago your chokehold/pressure on my chest put me in a position in which I couldn’t breathe, can you please stop doing that so you don’t restrict my breathing again”. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/620 "2014-12-12T17:47:13Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Vote. This isn’t rocket surgery. You elect representatives and you should then expect those representatives to actually represent you. > > If they won’t represent you, then you elect others who will. Which explains the Democrats recent loss of the Senate. When has that EVER worked for gaining or protecting rights…provide a SINGLE example. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=32)