# Why wasn't the police officer who killed Eric Garner indicted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271 "2014-12-04T00:06:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/661 "2014-12-15T19:49:39Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I didn’t see Garner given a lot of options. It was the police who made the bad choice. The one that made the chokehold in particular. He should be in jail awaiting trial. Garner didn’t have a lot of options. After 30+ arrests, Garner should have known that he had few options. 1) Don’t commit a crime. 2) Don’t resist arrest. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/662 "2014-12-15T19:51:25Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > There is no lawbreaking at 0:34. There was a discussion under way. Garner asked the officer, “who did I sell a cigarette to?” The officer then turned and pointed in the direction of the person in question. > > The liar taking the video didn’t video the crime that the police witnessed. How do you know that the police didn’t come in response to a fight that Eric Garner broke up? And that the arrest was due to him “breaking up a fight?” Oh that is right, you are the all knowing who refuses to answer any real debate points and who thinks winning a debate through attrition means your point won. Thank goodness our country wasn’t founded on your ideals, although they do fit in with the British ideals of the time. I would hate to see the distain you have for men like John Hancock and Samuel Adams! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/663 "2014-12-15T19:57:01Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Garner didn’t have a lot of options. After 30+ arrests, Garner should have known that he had few options. 1) Don’t commit a crime. 2) Don’t resist arrest. Your statement that he committed a crime is based on a cop pointing at someone, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/664 "2014-12-15T20:10:10Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Does Dr. Samenow argue that all criminals have the same “basic thinking patterns”? If so, how is this established and studied? > > Sure, 21-30 feet. Far enough so that the individual doesn’t feel cornered and trapped, close enough to prevent flight. (post shortened for a more manageable byte size) I won’t speak for Samenow but generally-speaking, criminals don’t believe laws apply to them. Just because you own something doesn’t mean they can’t take it whenever they feel like it. Or stab you if you object to the theft. Standing 21 feet apart is absurd. How do you interview a suspect, or have a general conversation, standing 2 car lengths away from someone? _"What are you doing here? WHAT? WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE? WAITING FOR MY FRIEND. YOU WERE JUST SEEN LEAVING A CONVIENT STORE THAT HAS JUST BEEN ROBBED. NO, I WASN’T. DO YOU HAVE AN ID? WHAT? ID! DO YOU HAVE AN ID? YA. TOSS IT OVER HERE. WHAT? TOSS YOUR ID OVER HERE._ I’m not seeing this becoming law. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/665 "2014-12-15T20:12:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Your statement that he committed a crime is based on a cop pointing at someone, apparently. The officer(s) witness the crime. The officers were arresting Garner. Garner chose to resist arrest. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/666 "2014-12-15T20:13:28Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > How do you know that the police didn’t come in response to a fight that Eric Garner broke up? And that the arrest was due to him “breaking up a fight?” > > Oh that is right, you are the all knowing who refuses to answer any real debate points and who thinks winning a debate through attrition means your point won. > > Thank goodness our country wasn’t founded on your ideals, although they do fit in with the British ideals of the time. > > I would hate to see the distain you have for men like John Hancock and Samuel Adams! Are you making any “debate points”? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/667 "2014-12-15T20:19:27Z")
By debate points, are you using the definition of broad, sweeping statements supported by improbable interpretations based on absurd analyses? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/668 "2014-12-15T20:26:34Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The officer(s) witness the crime. How do you know? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/669 "2014-12-15T20:34:48Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened for a more manageable byte size) > > I won’t speak for Samenow but generally-speaking, criminals don’t believe laws apply to them. Just because you own something doesn’t mean they can’t take it whenever they feel like it. Or stab you if you object to the theft. That’s a hell of a broad brush, there. A guy who sells drugs is the same as an armed robber, who’s the same as a bootleg DVD seller, who’s the same as an unlicensed cabbie, who’s the same as serial killer? I notice a lot of othering language in your posts on these matters, as though there are classes of people that have different rights and worth than you do. > [@doorhinge](#): > > Standing 21 feet apart is absurd. How do you interview a suspect, or have a general conversation, standing 2 car lengths away from someone? > > _"What are you doing here? WHAT? WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE? WAITING FOR MY FRIEND. YOU WERE JUST SEEN LEAVING A CONVIENT STORE THAT HAS JUST BEEN ROBBED. NO, I WASN’T. DO YOU HAVE AN ID? WHAT? ID! DO YOU HAVE AN ID? YA. TOSS IT OVER HERE. WHAT? TOSS YOUR ID OVER HERE._ > > I’m not seeing this becoming law. Either I’m not making myself clear, or you’re skimming over posts in your quest to answer them all. I was referring to this specific situation: the police are trying to arrest someone for a nonviolent offense, he claims he’s being harassed yet again and maintains his innocence - not a blanket rule for all police/civilian encounters. In such a scenario, if the police were, as they should be, interested in reserving the use of force as a last resort, one way to contribute to that is to have one officer speak with the suspect, while the others remain at a reasonable distance - close enough to assist, not so close as to escalate the situation. Speaking of the number of police involved, Malcolm Gladwell wrote in _Blink_ about the effect it has on the outcome, as he discusses [here](http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/the_book_club/features/2005/blink_and_the_wisdom_of_crowds/how_to_improve_the_decisionmaking_environment.html): > [@](#): > > For instance, one of the really interesting facts about police work is that an officer behaves much better—makes better decisions, fires his gun less frequently, has fewer complaints filed against him—when he is by himself than when he is paired with a partner. Officers on their own are far more cautious. Without the emboldening presence of a companion, they take far fewer risks. They don’t pick fights, or put themselves into nearly as many ambiguous or dangerous situations, because they know they have no one looking out for them. Just food for thought. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/670 "2014-12-15T20:57:46Z")
Perhaps. Gotta wonder how the _other_ officer’s judgement of the officer relates. And if the first officer is a comparative “rookie” anxious for approval. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/671 "2014-12-15T21:11:01Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > …Police claim that their conduct was justified, other accounts differ. Shocking. In any case, the above incident didn’t spring from a mob attacking police officers making an arrest. > > He didn’t strike anyone or threaten anyone. What’s the basis for your claim here? > > He and he alone? You never answered that one. (post shortened) - Two under cover cops mingled with the demonstrators. One, or more, demonstrators discovered that they were police officers. One demonstrator struck one of the officers in the back of his head. The officers detained and arrested the person who attacked them. The mob became angry and one of the officers drew his weapon to protect himself and his partner. It appears that the mob attacked the officers because they were officers. - Garner chose to fight (resist) his arrest. - I gave several option in post 584. The police chose to gang tackle Garner in order to make the arrest. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/672 "2014-12-15T21:21:48Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Contact the Chief of Police and tell him how to do his job. Obviously he needs help, he’s screwing it up badly so far. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/673 "2014-12-15T21:26:40Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That’s a hell of a broad brush, there. A guy who sells drugs is the same as an armed robber, who’s the same as a bootleg DVD seller, who’s the same as an unlicensed cabbie, who’s the same as serial killer? I notice a lot of othering language in your posts on these matters, as though there are classes of people that have different rights and worth than you do. > > Either I’m not making myself clear, or you’re skimming over posts in your quest to answer them all. I was referring to this specific situation: the police are trying to arrest someone for a nonviolent offense, he claims he’s being harassed yet again and maintains his innocence - not a blanket rule for all police/civilian encounters. In such a scenario, if the police were, as they should be, interested in reserving the use of force as a last resort, one way to contribute to that is to have one officer speak with the suspect, while the others remain at a reasonable distance - close enough to assist, not so close as to escalate the situation. (post shortened) Career criminals, criminals in general, have no regard for the law. Laws against stealing, rape, murder, don’t apply to them. - Garner had several minutes to comply. It appears that Garner was primarily being addressed by, and responding to, one officer. It appears that Garner wasn’t going to comply. It appears that force was the last resort. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/674 "2014-12-15T21:28:17Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Obviously he needs help, he’s screwing it up badly so far. Times a wastin’. What are you still doin’ here? Pack your bags. The Big Apple awaits. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/675 "2014-12-15T21:36:42Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The officer(s) witness the crime. Doubly wrong 1. The cops did not witness a crime, a crime was reported to them. 2. The crime was selling untaxed cigarettes. Garner did not have cigarettes on him at the time of the arrest so how did the police witness this? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/676 "2014-12-15T21:48:30Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Doubly wrong > > 1. The cops did not witness a crime, a crime was reported to them. > 2. The crime was selling untaxed cigarettes. Garner did not have cigarettes on him at the time of the arrest so how did the police witness this? I’m curious if **doorhinge** is constitutionally capable of admitting that he was wrong about something. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/677 "2014-12-15T22:07:14Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Doubly wrong > > 1. The cops did not witness a crime, a crime was reported to them. > 2. The crime was selling untaxed cigarettes. Garner did not have cigarettes on him at the time of the arrest so how did the police witness this? I’ll take your word that someone other than a police officer reported Garner for illegally selling illegal cigarettes provided you provide a cite. It’s NYC, or more specifically Staten Island, and I believe it’s illegal to sell untaxed cigarettes and untaxed cigarettes are illegal to own. Let’s see, Garner sold untaxed cigarettes. Someone bought those untaxed cigarettes and walked away. Garner no longer had illegal cigarettes in his possession. It can’t possibly be that simple, can it? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/678 "2014-12-15T22:34:55Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I’ll take your word that someone other than a police officer reported Garner for illegally selling illegal cigarettes provided you provide a cite. It’s NYC, or more specifically Staten Island, and I believe it’s illegal to sell untaxed cigarettes and untaxed cigarettes are illegal to own. > > Let’s see, Garner sold untaxed cigarettes. Someone bought those untaxed cigarettes and walked away. Garner no longer had illegal cigarettes in his possession. It can’t possibly be that simple, can it? In other words, no, you don’t have any evidence that police witnessed lawbreaking. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/679 "2014-12-15T22:51:00Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > …provided you provide a cite… Where’s yours? ---
**Author:** ![OwnRules](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@OwnRules](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OwnRules)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/680 "2014-12-15T22:52:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > …The hold used to subdue Garner was not such a chokehold, since Garner as mentioned was able to speak. Instead it was one which produces pressure on the carotid sinus and vagus nerve, not asphyxia. > > Regards, > Shodan > > PS - On the subject of the different kinds of chokes, my post is not my cite - thirty years of experience having experienced and applied both types is my cite. Dude, you’re awesome -seriously, Chuck has nothing on you! Not even a stylish mullet. Fact remains he died due to an _illegal chokehold_. Not 30 years worth, but a minute or two. End of. Back to you _Sensei_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=35)