# Why wasn't the police officer who killed Eric Garner indicted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271 "2014-12-04T00:06:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![OwnRules](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@OwnRules](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OwnRules)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/681 "2014-12-15T23:20:07Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Yes, I know. Brown’s death didn’t sufficiently knock the socks off you. We get it. There wasn’t a high res tape showing him executed in cold blood. 'Tis a pity… And a shame. How can those Islamist bastards use the latest taping equipment while Americans are limited to handheld phones? I mean who are the “backward” ones here? The ones that allow it and/or make it happen or the ones that try to negate anything out of the ordinary’s happened? Public executions\* aren’t privy to Islamic states. And “oops!” is not an excuse. \*Not saying that it was Pantaleo’s intent to execute him, but he damn well knew he had Garner in a deadly hold – not a _Sensei_ myself by any means – all forms of fighting can be lethal by their own nature – but got into plenty of scraps in HS and college and I well knew that a quick leg trip and a chokehold would win (Tap Out, if you would. Never thought it was about killing but victory or surrender. Bruised egos mostly) most of my scraps. Hard to swallow that a veteran PC officer, wouldn’t. Perhaps if we would have had a trial it’d been easier to gauge his intentions? A mistake? Mayhaps. But all the adrenalin in he world doesn’t excuse a professional that simply can’t do his job. ---
**Author:** ![OwnRules](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@OwnRules](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OwnRules)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/682 "2014-12-15T23:33:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, because I don’t affiliate with terrorists. The fuck? 😕 > [@](#): > > The “protests” that occurred in my town over the weekend consisted of a bunch of people running out into the street by the freeway on-ramp, then lying down in the road, blocking traffic and causing a major backup on the interstate until the police arrived to disperse them. That is not how civilized people behave. What you describe is a very mild form of Civil disobedience. And even on the outskirts of protests, it is very much a form of – ask Gandhi. > [@](#): > > Not that I expected much more from the “activists” in a town that’s _proud_ of the fact that one of its native daughters was so lacking in common sense that she decided to hie off to Palestine and lie on the ground in front of a bulldozer. Rachell Corrie is one of my true heroes – she died for her convictions. Mayhaps it’s not “your town” that has it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![OwnRules](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@OwnRules](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OwnRules)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/683 "2014-12-15T23:49:48Z")
> [@treis](#): > > 😕 > > There were two cops there watching him. One was clearly watching his face and checking every so often to see if he was breathing. Means diddly squat if they weren’t doing anything about it. And they weren’t > [@](#): > > They. Were. Doing. Everything. They. Could. I’ll ask again, what specifically do you think the cops should have done that they didn’t? No. They. Were. Not. CPR? Heard of it? A first response on a myriad of occasions when someone might dying – heck I took a course, you’d think _one_ officer on scene might have also. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/684 "2014-12-16T00:05:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Where’s yours? It’s still in the same place. The video showed the officer turning and pointing in the direction of the buyer when career criminal Garner asked who he had sold cigarettes to. Who reported that police were only responding to a citizen’s complaint and hadn’t actually seen the illegal sale? Other than **Saint Cad** , that is. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/685 "2014-12-16T00:15:01Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > It’s still in the same place. The video showed the officer turning and pointing in the direction of the buyer when career criminal Garner asked who he had sold cigarettes to. The conversation is not clear at all, and it’s not clear why the officer is pointing, and who he is pointing at. Unless you have a video with very clear audio. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/686 "2014-12-16T02:32:14Z")
He wasn’t pointing at the career criminal, but maybe there was another career criminal close to hand, maybe next to the liar who was recording stuff. The career criminal client, the guy who just bought all of the career criminals covert ciggies? We may never know. ---
**Author:** ![OwnRules](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@OwnRules](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OwnRules)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/687 "2014-12-16T02:46:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > He wasn’t pointing at the career criminal, but maybe there was another career criminal close to hand, maybe next to the liar who was recording stuff. The career criminal client, the guy who just bought all of the career criminals covert ciggies? > > We may never know. You are way too benign. We’re talking terrorist here. Not **simply** criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/688 "2014-12-16T03:35:58Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > - Two under cover cops mingled with the demonstrators. One, or more, demonstrators discovered that they were police officers. One demonstrator struck one of the officers in the back of his head. The officers detained and arrested the person who attacked them. The mob became angry and one of the officers drew his weapon to protect himself and his partner. It appears that the mob attacked the officers because they were officers. That is one account, sure. It’s disputed by others who were there. In any case, it doesn’t line up with the scenario you’re describing as being so dangerous to police attempting to talk to suspects instead of just dogpiling them straight away. > [@doorhinge](#): > > - Garner chose to fight (resist) his arrest. Resist, yes. Fight, no. > [@doorhinge](#): > > - I gave several option in post 584. Which I responded to in my subsequent post. > [@doorhinge](#): > > The police chose to gang tackle Garner in order to make the arrest. This isn’t disputed; I’m not alleging that they were intending to kill Garner. Obviously, they were trying to arrest him. > [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > Career criminals, criminals in general, have no regard for the law. Laws against stealing, rape, murder, don’t apply to them. Again, I reject this black-and-white categorization of human beings. A person who sells pot for a living, for instance, doesn’t automatically believe that laws against murder don’t apply to them. For example, note all the non-murdering, non-stealing, non-raping criminals that exist. > [@doorhinge](#): > > - Garner had several minutes to comply. It appears that Garner was primarily being addressed by, and responding to, one officer. It appears that Garner wasn’t going to comply. It appears that force was the last resort. It looks like about a minute and ten seconds, depending on how much time elapsed before the filming started. One officer does most of the talking, while the others surround and edge toward him. The dialogue includes non-constructive bits like one officer warning Garner that it’d be “the easy way or the hard way”. That’s rather the opposite of de-escalation, there. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/689 "2014-12-16T04:10:35Z")
> [@OwnRules](#): > > Means diddly squat if they weren’t doing anything about it. And they weren’t > > No. They. Were. Not. > > CPR? Heard of it? A first response on a myriad of occasions when someone might dying – If you had kept reading my posts, you would have learned that one does not perform CPR on a breathing person. > [@OwnRules](#): > > heck I took a course, Sounds like you should have paid better attention ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/690 "2014-12-16T15:31:38Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I agree with **Malthus** here for the reasons he stated. I contend that it is unreasonable for an officer to arrest you for carrying a six-shooter when the law clearly and unambiguously states that the cut off is 10 rounds. That is a clear mistake of law and not a defense to battery. From yesterday’s _Heien v. North Carolina_: > [@US Supreme Court](#): > > The Fourth Amendment prohibits “unreasonable searches and seizures.” Under this standard, a search or seizure may be permissible even though the justification for the action includes a reasonable factual mistake. An officer might, for example, stop a motorist for traveling alone in a high-occupancy vehicle lane, only to discover upon approaching the car that two children are slumped over asleep in the back seat. The driver has not violated the law, but neither has the officer violated the Fourth Amendment. > > But what if the police officer’s reasonable mistake is not one of fact but of law? In this case, an officer stopped a vehicle because one of its two brake lights was out, but a court later determined that a single working brake light was all the law required. The question presented is whether such a mistake of law can nonetheless give rise to the reasonable suspicion necessary to uphold the seizure under the Fourth Amendment. We hold that it can. Because the officer’s mistake about the brake-light law was reasonable, the stop in this case was lawful under the Fourth Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/691 "2014-12-16T18:51:57Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That is one account, sure… (post shortened) - The police didn’t “dogpile” Garner right away. There was a verbal interaction. Several more officers plus a supervisor arrived at the scene before the decision was made to gang tackle Garner. So yes, it does depend on how much time elapsed before the filming started. The minute and ten seconds time frame does not reflect the overall time between when officers witnessed Garner’s crime and the arrest was made. There doesn’t seem to be any 1st person report that police could not have witnessed Garner’s illegal sale of illegal cigarettes. I’ll accept the police version until someone can actually prove otherwise. - The term “fight” certainly applies to Garner’s action. fight › to argue with or use force against another person or a group of people, or to oppose something: > **[fight](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/fight)** > > 1. to use physical force to try to defeat another person or group of people… - You asked me if the police made the right choice. I believe we agree that Garner made the wrong choice. Given the choices available to the police, at the time the decision was made to gang tackle Garner, I have to say that the police made the correct choice. Of course, the police could have chosen the Eric “Don’t arrest the NPPP for issuing death threats and demands for kidnapping” Holder, who would expect police to just ignore crimes they have witnessed. - Illegal pot sellers don’t believe that pot laws apply to them. Murderer’s don’t believe that murder laws apply to them. Rapists don’t believe that rape laws apply to them. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/692 "2014-12-16T19:32:05Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > …Of course, the police could have chosen the Eric “Don’t arrest the NPPP for issuing death threats and demands for kidnapping” Holder, who would expect police to just ignore crimes they have witnessed… I suspect your characterization of Mr. Holder is somewhat exaggerated. And are you, by any chance, referring to the New Plack Panther Party? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/693 "2014-12-16T20:39:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I suspect your characterization of Mr. Holder is somewhat exaggerated. And are you, by any chance, referring to the New Plack Panther Party? hehehe. Why, yes, yes I am. It’s a little known group. Outside of the people who don’t visit their optometrist’s office often enough, it’s almost unheard of. Sorry for the confusion. I meant the NBPP. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/694 "2014-12-16T20:39:55Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > There doesn’t seem to be any 1st person report that police could not have witnessed Garner’s illegal sale of illegal cigarettes. I’ll accept the police version until someone can actually prove otherwise. No cigarettes or packs were found on the corpse. Explain how if the police witnessed the sales there is no evidence of it. OR Even point out any police report that they were an eye witness to the crime. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/695 "2014-12-16T20:48:34Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > - You asked me if the police made the right choice. I believe we agree that Garner made the wrong choice. Given the choices available to the police, at the time the decision was made to gang tackle Garner, I have to say that the police made the correct choice. Of course, the police could have chosen the Eric “Don’t arrest the NPPP for issuing death threats and demands for kidnapping” Holder, who would expect police to just ignore crimes they have witnessed. 1. Yes maybe resisting arrest is a wrong choice but certainly did not deserve the overreaction by the police. 2. Gang tackle? The issue is the chokehold which was against policy AND you need to be trained in to use as a restraint. Are you saying it was a correct choice to use an unauthorized restraint? 3. Again you have no evidence that the police witnessed any crime and in fact the evidence indicates that this “career criminal” was in fact NOT selling untaxed cigarettes at the time. All you seem to say is since we cannot absolutely 100% prove the cops DIDN’T witness it, we must accept your teapot that they did witness it. Well where is YOUR evidence? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/696 "2014-12-16T20:51:24Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > No cigarettes or packs were found on the corpse. Explain how if the police witnessed the sales there is no evidence of it. > OR > Even point out any police report that they were an eye witness to the crime. Garner sold them. The person who bought them, walked away. AND Are you referring to an eyewitness, other than the police officer, who witnessed the illegal sale? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/697 "2014-12-16T21:38:12Z")
We don’t know, you haven’t told us. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/698 "2014-12-16T21:47:35Z")
> [@OwnRules](#): > > What you describe is a very mild form of Civil disobedience. And even on the outskirts of protests, it is very much a form of – ask Gandhi. Thousands of dollars are squandered due to such “mild” protests. When people can’t get to work because of jackoffs lying down in the street to protest something that happened 3,000 miles away which nobody present had any part in, they end up unemployed, broke, and homeless. Lives are ruined by this nonsense. > [@](#): > > Rachell Corrie is one of my true heroes – she died for her convictions. She died for a cause which was unjust and wrong, and she died because she lied down in front of an armored vehicle where the driver could not possibly even see her. She was a fool and she died like a fool. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/699 "2014-12-16T21:49:11Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > The issue is the chokehold which was against policy AND you need to be trained in to use as a restraint. Except that the chokehold _wasn’t_ against policy. The policy prohibits air chokes, not blood chokes, which the autopsy demonstrates is what was applied. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/700 "2014-12-16T22:05:04Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Garner sold them. The person who bought them, walked away. > > AND > > Are you referring to an eyewitness, other than the police officer, who witnessed the illegal sale? You’ve presented no evidence that this is what happened. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=36)