# Why wasn't the police officer who killed Eric Garner indicted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271 "2014-12-04T00:06:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/721 "2014-12-17T23:07:04Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > There are three choices. Someone reported a crime to the police and the police responded. Police witnessed a crime and attempted to arrest the suspect. Police made up the whole thing in order to strangle Garner in broad daylight No one in this thread (and very nearly no one at all anywhere) is arguing that the cops “made up the whole thing in order to strangle Garner in broad daylight.” No one. Your misrepresenting of the argument is silly and IMO being kind of a jerk. Not to mention that other possibilities than your three scenarios clearly exist. But I guess you’re going to completely dismiss the possibility that the cops might have been **wrong** ; you certainly have done so thus far. **doorhinge** , with all respect, can you see how this sort of dishonest argument is doing you no favors? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/722 "2014-12-17T23:15:50Z")
It would not be necessary for police to make something up in order to strangle him. They might have to make something up in order to get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/723 "2014-12-18T01:32:09Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > There are three choices. Someone reported a crime to the police and the police responded. Police witnessed a crime and attempted to arrest the suspect. Police made up the whole thing in order to strangle Garner in broad daylight. It was the first one. See below. It is a new invention called a cite. > [@doorhinge](#): > > AFAIK, there were no reports of police responding to a complaint from the public concerning Garner’s selling cigarettes. Unless/until someone comes forward to prove that the police could not possibly have seen Garner selling cigarettes, I’m going to have to take the word of the police. WHAT WORD OF THE POLICE?! You keep referring to this yet fail to present even one quote that indicates the police saw anything. Do you even know what a cite is? It’s something [like this](http://www.middletownpress.com/opinion/20141204/norm-pattis-eric-garner-decision-right-call) > [@](#): > > Store owners on Staten Island had complained to local police that Garner was selling individual cigarettes, known as loosies, in front of their shops. Apparently, that’s against the law. It may well be a silly law, but it is a law that is on the books. > > Daniel Pantaleo, a young police officer, approached Garner with other officers. You can watch Garner protest on YouTube. “I did not sell nothing,” he says, as he backs away. Pantaleo was about to arrest him. > > Police officers need not witness a crime take place to make an arrest. When it comes to minor offenses, they can arrest a person on the speedy information of others. In this case, it appears as if store owners complained about Garner, and officers, in reliance on the store owners, sought to arrest him. > > Obviously, I have no idea whether Garner sold cigarettes or not. Most likely, the cops simply relied upon the accusations of others when they approached Garner. All that was necessary to detain him was a reasonable suspicion, more than a hunch, that he had broken the law. To arrest him, they need only conclude that there was a reasonable belief he broke the law. Hmmm. So the cops didn’t see him? Just responded to a report? So where is your cite or quote? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/724 "2014-12-18T18:02:29Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > It was the first one. See below. It is a new invention called a cite. > > WHAT WORD OF THE POLICE?! You keep referring to this yet fail to present even one quote that indicates the police saw anything. > > Do you even know what a cite is? It’s something [like this](http://www.midletownpress.com/opinion/20141204/norm-pattis-eric-garner-decision-right-call) > > Hmmm. So the cops didn’t see him? Just responded to a report? So where is your cite or quote? You requested a cite and I didn’t provide one. For that, I appoligize. _…Police sources familiar with the investigation said that the officers were tying to arrest Garner because they saw him selling untaxed cigarettes, which he had done in the past_. > **["He was a great dad," says family of man who died while being arrested in...](https://www.silive.com/news/2014/07/he_was_a_great_dad_says_family.html)** > > By RYAN LAVIS and JOHN M. ANNESE STATEN ISLAND, N.Y. -- Family and friends fought back tears and demanded answers from authorities late Thursday night as they stood by a memorial where police arrested 43-year-old Eric Garner earlier that... This source is not the equivilent of reading the official police reports of all the officers involved. What did dispatch know and when did they know it. Were officers dispatched to the scene because of a fight? Were officers dispatched to the scene because a non-police officer reported Garner for selling cigarettes? Were officers already in the area because that was their duty assignment? Did officers actually see Garner selling cigarettes? Who requested a police supervisor and when did they do that? Did the original arresting officers call for backup and how long did it take for backup to arrive? All of these questions could be answered by releasing police reports and 9-1-1 recordings. As far as I’m concerned 3rd party statements from non-eyewitnesses, including police spokespersons, may not be correct. I prefer to see the official documentation. I prefer to solve the puzzle of what actually happened that day. In your cite of Norm Pattis’s article, Pattis writes, “Store owners on Staten Island had complained to local police that Garner was selling individual cigarettes, known as loosies, in front of their shops.” But what is his time frame? Was he speaking about past calls that shop owners had made concerning Garner’s illegal activities? Garner has been arrested many time before. Was Pattis refering to store owner calls made the day of Garner’s last arrest? Does Pattis make it clear that police did, or did not see, or could not have possibly seen, Garner illegally selling cigarettes? The answer is no, Pattis does not make it clear. The answers would be in the police reports. If you want to know what the police saw, you’ll still have to ask the NYPD. I don’t have access to those reports. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/725 "2014-12-18T18:23:14Z")
Now, this is a more or less reasonable position, because uncertainty does not require proof. We look forward to further progress. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/726 "2014-12-18T18:37:14Z")
doorhinge’s cite is actually pretty awesome since it shows how many different stories there are about what really happened including the claim that police witnessed the illegal sale. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/727 "2014-12-18T20:32:13Z")
> [@Norm Pattis](#): > > Police officers need not witness a crime take place to make an arrest. When it comes to minor offenses, they can arrest a person on the speedy information of others. I’m not buying this. I have witnessed in both NJ and NYC police arriving at a location because of a complaint and when they find nothing to arrest for, they leave. Examples include public sex, drug sales, alcohol in a park, setting off fireworks and marijuana smoking. Of course my anecdotal information doesn’t count as strong evidence, but I can’t see cops arresting someone for, say, selling marijuana and having no evidence other than “someone called and said he did” and having that go over very well with the officers’ superiors or judge. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/728 "2014-12-19T02:41:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Now, this is a more or less reasonable position, because uncertainty does not require proof. We look forward to further progress. That’s a nice sentiment. However, you asked for a cite and I provided you with a video, which, of course, you rejected. You found 3rd person accounts of what might have happened to be acceptable and demanded the same from me. I can work with your limitations. The video suggests, to me, that police did, in fact, witness Garner illegally selling illegal cigarettes. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/729 "2014-12-19T12:09:27Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The video suggests, to me, that police did, in fact, witness Garner illegally selling illegal cigarettes. Not sure how. There’s garbled conversation and a cop points at someone off camera. That doesn’t seem to suggest anything in particular about what they were talking about. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/730 "2014-12-20T05:30:49Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > I’m not buying this. I have witnessed in both NJ and NYC police arriving at a location because of a complaint and when they find nothing to arrest for, they leave. Examples include public sex, drug sales, alcohol in a park, setting off fireworks and marijuana smoking. Of course my anecdotal information doesn’t count as strong evidence, but I can’t see cops arresting someone for, say, selling marijuana and having no evidence other than “someone called and said he did” and having that go over very well with the officers’ superiors or judge. You are obviously ignorant of the stop and frisk policy, and are probably white and or not poor. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rWtDMPaRD8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rWtDMPaRD8) Of the 532,911 people who were stopped, detained and searched for no reason in 2012, 473,644 were totally innocent. You may not “see” it but the data shows it is and in fact. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/731 "2014-12-20T05:58:10Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > That’s a nice sentiment. However, you asked for a cite and I provided you with a video, which, of course, you rejected. You found 3rd person accounts of what might have happened to be acceptable and demanded the same from me. I can work with your limitations. The video suggests, to me, that police did, in fact, witness Garner illegally selling illegal cigarettes. Ah yes…the NYPD that is known for trumped up charges and quotas…heck they even do this to their own that are brave enough to speak up against illegal practices. [ > [@](#): > > Supervisors have written Douglass up on demonstrably false charges, such as running a red light at 34th Street and 12th Avenue in Manhattan. > > “That is one of the busiest inter- sections in the city. There are traffic cameras, and if he went through on red he would have gotten a ticket,” Puleo said. “But he didn’t. That proves that these trumped-up charges are bogus.” > > Charges filed against Douglass in July allege that he “failed to notify his supervisor of his location.” But at the time, Douglass was at Police Dept. headquarters answering earlier accusations, union officials said. > > “Everyone - including Douglass’s NYPD supervisors - knows you cannot bring a radio into Police headquarters; so how was Douglass supposed to answer their radio call?” Puleo asked. ]([http://www.dc37.net/news/PEP/9\_2014/TEA\_harassment.html](http://www.dc37.net/news/PEP/9_2014/TEA_harassment.html)) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/732 "2014-12-20T06:34:50Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > …The video suggests, to me, that police did, in fact, witness Garner illegally selling illegal cigarettes. “Suggests”? Doesn’t your level of firm conviction call for something a bit more substantial? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/733 "2014-12-20T15:08:51Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You are obviously ignorant of the stop and frisk policy, and are probably white and or not poor. > > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rWtDMPaRD8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rWtDMPaRD8) > > Of the 532,911 people who were stopped, detained and searched for no reason in 2012, 473,644 were totally innocent. > > You may not “see” it but the data shows it is and in fact. Speaking of ignorance, being stopped and frisked is not being arrested. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/734 "2014-12-20T19:12:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > “Suggests”? Doesn’t your level of firm conviction call for something a bit more substantial? No. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/735 "2014-12-20T19:15:25Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Ah yes…the NYPD that is known for trumped up charges and quotas…heck they even do this to their own that are brave enough to speak up against illegal practices. > > [URL=“[http://www.dc37.net/news/PEP/9\_2014/TEA\_harassment.html](http://www.dc37.net/news/PEP/9_2014/TEA_harassment.html)”] Then you should have no problem proving that the Garner arrest was a trumped up charge. Please feel free to use as many 3rd person speculations as you can find. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/736 "2014-12-22T18:35:58Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Then you should have no problem proving that the Garner arrest was a trumped up charge. Please feel free to use as many 3rd person speculations as you can find. Pot…meet Kettle 🙂 What I do have is evidence that more than 80%+ of the people who were detained by the police due to the ILLEGAL stop and frisk program couldn’t have anything pinned on them. And that despite a massive number of arrests by the NYPD, Eric Garner wasn’t being charge OR convicted. Knowing the numbers my guess is far more likely than yours and the main difference is that , I don’t make the claim that it is settled fact. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/737 "2014-12-22T20:50:48Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > … And that despite a massive number of arrests by the NYPD, Eric Garner wasn’t being charge OR convicted. (post shortened) Charged OR convicted? Are you aware that Eric Garner is dead? What would you charge OR convict Garner of doing? Why wasn’t the police officer who killed Eric Garner indicted? The grand jury had access to police reports, medical reports, forensic evidence, and eye witnesses. The grand jury decided that there wasn’t enough evidence to push forward for an indictment against the officer. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/738 "2014-12-22T21:07:14Z")
An interesting albeit trivial point: was he actually under arrest when he died? Had he been read his rights? The right to remain silent was more or less moot, at that point, of course. Could have been tried in _absentia extremis_, I suppose, though his whereabouts would be known, to a fine certainty. Though, as a criminal kingpin, he was probably well versed. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/739 "2014-12-22T21:11:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > An interesting albeit trivial point: was he actually under arrest when he died? Had he been read his rights? Being Mirandized is a prerequisite to being _questioned_, not being arrested. He was under arrest pretty much the moment the encounter began. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/740 "2014-12-23T00:42:47Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You are obviously ignorant of the stop and frisk policy, and are probably white and or not poor. > > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rWtDMPaRD8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rWtDMPaRD8) > > Of the 532,911 people who were stopped, detained and searched for no reason in 2012, 473,644 were totally innocent. > > You may not “see” it but the data shows it is and in fact. At what time stamp in the 13 minute video does it support your claim? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=38)