# Why wasn't the police officer who killed Eric Garner indicted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271 "2014-12-04T00:06:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/61 "2014-12-04T16:52:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Have you ever taken a first aid class? They’ll teach you not to perform first aid on someone who tells you they can’t breathe, because if they say they can’t breathe, they can breathe. What does that have to do with anything? What a weird argument. “I’ve got someone in a chokehold and he says he’s having trouble breathing (using short hand everyone knows), but I don’t need to stop because my first aid teacher told me he’s really ok?” The fact that he died from being choked means the choke hold WAS impacting his breathing right up to the moment he could breathe no longer. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/62 "2014-12-04T16:52:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Have you ever taken a first aid class? They’ll teach you not to perform first aid on someone who tells you they can’t breathe, because if they say they can’t breathe, they can breathe. Who taught you first aid, and can you sue them for fraud? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/63 "2014-12-04T16:55:22Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Both CNN and FOX have shown videos of Garner’s wife, speaking at some recent press conference, saying that her husband told the police eleven times that he couldn’t breathe. Eleven times? That sounds like Garner could breathe. Am I in a George Orwell novel? Joseph Heller? Franz Kafka? You guys would tell me if I was, no? ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/64 "2014-12-04T17:02:21Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Do you know, in fact, that he _was_ breaking the law? That determination is made in court, not by cops and certainly not by armchair spectators who have nothing to go by except the accusations of the same cops who killed him. > > You also haven’t explained how the guy resisted arrest. One minute he was standing in one place and protesting his innocence, like any innocent person would. The next minute he was being wrestled to ground by a small football team of policemen. This conflict went from 0 to 100 in a matter of seconds. Claiming he resisted arrest in that flash of time is ridiculous. > > Look at the video again. Do “small football teams” of cops travel around NYC? What lead up to the point of the video where he was surrounded by 4-5 cops? Was it a “chokehold” or not? The union says no. What’s the definition of and punishment for resisting arrest? Hopefully if we end up spending millions to prove that cops are good people 99% of the time we can at least deter that kind of behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/65 "2014-12-04T17:16:57Z")
I’m now convinced that there is a secret society to which certain right-wing extremists belong that obliges them to defend the police at all costs and at all times. It’s the only way to explain the predictable consistency of some of the comments in both this and the Ferguson threads and the utter contempt for facts and evidence and for the principle of measured response. One really does wonder if there’s anything a police officer could ever do to have them calling for his indictment, unless of course it happens to them personally. Other than that, I don’t think there is. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/66 "2014-12-04T17:24:03Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Do “small football teams” of cops travel around NYC? What lead up to the point of the video where he was surrounded by 4-5 cops? Apparently local merchants had complained about Garner selling cigarettes. Police were responding a fight nearby, which Garner (per witness accounts) had helped break up, when they decided to accost Garner. > [@What the .... ?!?!](#): > > Was it a “chokehold” or not? The union says no. The officer throws his arm around Garner’s neck and holds it there throughout the struggle. Garner died due to compression of the neck. I don’t know what else you’d call it. > [@What the .... ?!?!](#): > > What’s the definition of and punishment for resisting arrest? Hopefully if we end up spending millions to prove that cops are good people 99% of the time we can at least deter that kind of behaviour. New York’s [relevant statute:](http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/PEN/THREE/L/205/205.30) > [@](#): > > A person is guilty of resisting arrest when he intentionally prevents or attempts to prevent a police officer or peace officer from effecting an authorized arrest of himself or another person. …which seems incredibly broad compared to, say, [Kentucky’s"](http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/statute.aspx?id=19875) > [@](#): > > (1) A person is guilty of resisting arrest when he intentionally prevents or attempts > to prevent a peace officer, recognized to be acting under color of his official > authority, from effecting an arrest of the actor or another by: > (a) Using or threatening to use physical force or violence against the peace > officer or another; or > (b) Using any other means creating a substantial risk of causing physical > injury to the peace officer or another. In both states, the offense is a class A misdemeanor. Frankly, I can’t believe anyone would defend the police’s, and Officer Pantaleo in particular’s, conduct in this case. Responding to about two seconds of non-compliance from a nonthreatening suspect with a gang-tackle and a choke hold is disgusting, unacceptable behavior and a clear example of excessive force. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/67 "2014-12-04T17:25:33Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Well, there is that video of Garner resisting arrest. The cops were trying to arrest Garner and Garner was resisting their efforts. That certainly looks like a clear cut case of resisting arrest. He wasn’t “resisting arrest”. He was “resisting being attacked”, which is not the same thing. An “arrest” is when the cops tell someone they are not at liberty to leave. They can enforce such an “arrest” with force, if it is resisted or the suspect attempts to leave (though the force itself has to be proportionate). Importantly, if the cops fail to “arrest” you, you can … leave whenever you want. The simple act of cops attacking you is not an “arrest” in and of itself! In order to affect an “arrest”, the police must engage in certain legal formalities - which vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I posted what appears to be the New York law on this point upthread, concerning “arrests” where no specific warrant for an arrest has been issued. The significant section states that, in order to affect an “arrest”, the NY cops must do the following: > [@](#): > > 1. The arresting police officer must inform such person of his > authority and purpose and of the reason for such arrest unless he > encounters physical resistance, flight or other factors rendering such > procedure impractical. The language is imperative (the police “must” do this). If they fail to do it, it is not a legal “arrest”. In this case, there is no indication on the tape that the suspect had ever been informed of any such thing. Furthermore, there is no indication that informing the suspect of the reason for the arrest was “impractical”. This hugely overweight man was not a ‘flight risk’ and he was not physically resisting the cops (that is, before _they_ attacked _him_). There was no obvious reason they could not have said “you are under arrest for … X”. It is less than clear what reasons they could have given. Therefore, there had been no “arrest” under New York law, so the man was not “resisting arrest”. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/68 "2014-12-04T17:26:10Z")
I’m not sure whether the policeman who killed Eric Garner should be imprisoned, but he should definitely be booted from the force forever. I read Joseph Wambaugh’s \*\*\*The Choirboys \*\*\*a few years ago, and I recall a scene in which a young cop working vice went on an extended chase of a prostitute he’d been trying to arrest. The chase eventually causes a car wreck, and the hooker gets away anyway. The cop’s commander dresses him down. He says, essentially, “You started all this for a MISDEMEANOR? What’s wrong with you? I thought you were SMART? She gets away this time, you’ll get her next time.” Point being, there’s NO FREAKING REASON to turn an arrest for petty crime into a matter of life and death. I don’t care if Eric Garner was resisting arrest. He was the pettiest of petty criminals. If he’d gone along quietly, what would his punichment have been- a fine? Confiscation of his cigarettes? A night in jail? BIG DEAL! There is no reason in the world to use deadly force with a guy like him! Choke holds are serious business. If a cop MUST use them, they’re to be reserved for violent criminals- not for hookers, not for ticket scalpers, and not for guys selling tax-free smokes. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/69 "2014-12-04T17:31:31Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > As someone who is 100% in the Wilson camp on Brown I have to admit I can’t figure out why this didn’t at least go to trial. I haven’t read this whole thread and it may be covered already but from what I gather A) Chokeholds were outlawed and the police know it B) the guy was trying to tap out the whole time he was on the ground C) it’s on video and D) he was selling smokes and not really hurting anybody so why was there even a need to lay hands on the guy to begin with. > > Tough to get behind this one. > > As an aside I think that the Protesting Community around the nation that has put all their eggs in the Brown basket made a major mistake tying to that sinking ship since he pretty much deserved what he got in the end based on his actions. It kills all of their credibility. > > With that said there are 1000’s of other, more cut and dry, abuses of power by the police against African Americans every year they could have rallied against. This one would be a perfect example. Instead the police issue is counterbalanced by Brown’s actions so no one concedes any ground to either side. I would be inclined to say that, if anything, this incident lends more credence to the cause of the Ferguson protestors, not less. The lack of an indictment in Ferguson was supposed to be based on a lack of clear evidence. This case, where there is clear video evidence of what happened, and where someone died who was clearly no threat, tells us that there is something more going on. Part of what is going on is the notorious difficulty of indicting, let alone convicting, a police officer in the US under any circumstances. But Amy Davidson, writing for the New Yorker, today suggests that a further complication is the tendency to undervalue the lives of blacks, and the companion problem of a tendency to over-weight the intentions of whites. It’s hard to shake the notion that there’s a great deal of truth to this. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/70 "2014-12-04T17:36:33Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I would be inclined to say that, if anything, this incident lends more credence to the cause of the Ferguson protestors, not less. The lack of an indictment in Ferguson was supposed to be based on a lack of clear evidence. This case, where there is clear video evidence of what happened, and where someone died who was clearly no threat, tells us that there is something more going on. > > Part of what is going on is the notorious difficulty of indicting, let alone convicting, a police officer in the US under any circumstances. But Amy Davidson, writing for the New Yorker, today suggests that a further complication is the tendency to undervalue the lives of blacks, and the companion problem of a tendency to over-weight the intentions of whites. It’s hard to shake the notion that there’s a great deal of truth to this. I believe his point is that what you say may all be true, but it would have been preferable for purposes of getting the message out if a different case was chosen for the _cause célèbre_. In particular, both the Garner and Rice cases were far more clear-cut - it is hard for anyone to reasonably argue they were justified, based on the evidence so far. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/71 "2014-12-04T17:37:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Who taught you first aid, and can you sue them for fraud? The American Red Cross. Who taught you that disagrees with them? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/72 "2014-12-04T17:39:01Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > One really does wonder if there’s anything a police officer could ever do to have them calling for his indictment, unless of course it happens to them personally. Actually doing something wrong would be a start. Every one of these cases of “cops going too far” this year has turned out to be a completely legitimate exercise of power against lawbreakers, that people are objecting to on visceral, non-logical grounds. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/73 "2014-12-04T17:40:24Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I would be inclined to say that, if anything, this incident lends more credence to the cause of the Ferguson protestors, not less. The lack of an indictment in Ferguson was supposed to be based on a lack of clear evidence. This case, where there is clear video evidence of what happened, and where someone died who was clearly no threat, tells us that there is something more going on. > > Part of what is going on is the notorious difficulty of indicting, let alone convicting, a police officer in the US under any circumstances. But Amy Davidson, writing for the New Yorker, today suggests that a further complication is the tendency to undervalue the lives of blacks, and the companion problem of a tendency to over-weight the intentions of whites. It’s hard to shake the notion that there’s a great deal of truth to this. Why do these threads always come down to name calling or weird CT type stuff? Can’t people just have an honest difference of opinion without resorting to calling anyone who disagrees with you names like ‘racist’, calling them disingenuous because they look at it differently or saying there are weird left/right wing CTs that are behind it all? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/74 "2014-12-04T17:40:47Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Part of what is going on is the notorious difficulty of indicting, let alone convicting, a police officer in the US under any circumstances. But Amy Davidson, writing for the New Yorker, today suggests that a further complication is the tendency to undervalue the lives of blacks, and the companion problem of a tendency to over-weight the intentions of whites. It’s hard to shake the notion that there’s a great deal of truth to this. If the races of the participants were switched and it was a gaggle of black officers responsible for the death of a white man resisting arrest, I would feel exactly the same as I do now. One’s status under the law is not determined by the color of their skin and this is nothing more than petty race-baiting where race is not an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/75 "2014-12-04T17:47:07Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The American Red Cross. Who taught you that disagrees with them? The American Red Cross from this reality. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/76 "2014-12-04T17:47:56Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Point being, there’s NO FREAKING REASON to turn an arrest for petty crime into a matter of life and death. I don’t care if Eric Garner was resisting arrest. He was the pettiest of petty criminals. If he’d gone along quietly, what would his punichment have been- a fine? Confiscation of his cigarettes? A night in jail? BIG DEAL! There is no reason in the world to use deadly force with a guy like him! Firstly, they didn’t use “deadly force” against him - they used reasonable force that happened to have an undesireable effect because he was a morbidly obese diabetic with high blood pressure and asthma who nonetheless decided that getting into a physical confrontation with five cops was a bad idea. Secondly, in his case, since it was not his first offense selling untaxed cigarettes, [it was a Class E felony under New York law](http://newyorkcriminaldefenseblawg.com/2013/01/criminal-sale-of-untaxed-cigarettes-ny-state-tax-law-%C2%A7-1814/), punishable by up to four years in jail. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/77 "2014-12-04T17:50:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If the races of the participants were switched and it was a gaggle of black officers responsible for the death of a white man resisting arrest, I would feel exactly the same as I do now. One’s status under the law is not determined by the color of their skin and this is nothing more than petty race-baiting where race is not an issue. It’s easy to stand behind hypotheticals that have an almost zero chance of happening, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/78 "2014-12-04T17:51:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Firstly, they didn’t use “deadly force” against him - they used reasonable force that happened to have an undesireable effect because he was a morbidly obese diabetic with high blood pressure and asthma who nonetheless decided that getting into a physical confrontation with five cops was a bad idea. It’s not reasonable which is why it was banned from the police force. Why do you think it was banned? ETA: In all seriousness, is there anything the police would do you wouldn’t defend? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/79 "2014-12-04T17:53:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Actually doing something wrong would be a start. Every one of these cases of “cops going too far” this year has turned out to be a completely legitimate exercise of power against lawbreakers, that people are objecting to on visceral, non-logical grounds. You’re entitled to your own view of what constitutes a legitimate excercise of police power against a criminal suspect, but not to define the motives of others. I object on entirely logical grounds: exposing Garner to the risk of serious injury or death would only be justified if he was an immediate threat to others. He wasn’t. Therefore, the police conduct wasn’t justified. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/80 "2014-12-04T17:58:21Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Why do these threads always come down to name calling or weird CT type stuff? Can’t people just have an honest difference of opinion without resorting to calling anyone who disagrees with you names like ‘racist’, calling them disingenuous because they look at it differently or saying there are weird left/right wing CTs that are behind it all? 😕 Racism isn’t actually a “conspiracy theory.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=5)