# Why wasn't the police officer who killed Eric Garner indicted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271 "2014-12-04T00:06:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/161 "2014-12-04T20:52:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then clearly white people need to be treated much worse than they are now. Is that the only way you can envision to even the playing field here? Really? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/162 "2014-12-04T20:55:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then clearly white people need to be treated much worse than they are now. Clearly you do not understand the facts. Forget Ferguson or this case, and if you want, even more outrageous cases like Levar Jones or Oscar Grant. Black people are harassed for no reason on an astonishingly regular basis. My brother in law, who is among the kindest, least threatening, calmest people I’ve ever known, is harassed regularly; he has no record of any kind, but he’s black. He once had a cop order him out of his car, hand on gun, for the alleged offense of running a stop sign, which was a curious accusation given that he had not yet started his car. Fortunately, he had white friends in the car with him who made a scene, so they let him go. I know law-abiding black people who average a “routine check” stop six, seven times a year. Often they’re ordered out of their cars. Sometimes they’re walking down the street and are accosted by police who demand to know where they’re going and what they’re doing. Sure hasn’t happened to me - not once, ever - because I’m white. You think it SHOULD happen to everyone? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/163 "2014-12-04T21:05:41Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > I am strongly on the “This was excessive force/this was inexcusable/there should have been an indictment” side of this, but … > > You can’t say “I can’t breathe” when you can’t breathe. > I believe that he felt like he couldn’t breathe. I believe there could have been moments during the altercation when he genuinely couldn’t breathe. Because the coroner’s report says so, I believe the choke hold caused the death in this case. > > But, while he was saying “I can’t breathe” he was breathing. > > There are plenty of points on which to tear apart the pro-cop side in this particular case. > When someone says that a person can’t say “I can’t breathe” if they can’t breathe, let it go. That part is factually correct. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/164 "2014-12-04T21:09:20Z")
[QUOTE=Peremensoe] What, exactly, were you describing as “weird CT type stuff,” if not the plainly racist tendencies described? [/QUOTE] Ah, I see the confusion…I screwed up my quoting. :smack: Sorry to both of you. I actually meant to be responding to this: [QUOTE=wolfpup] I’m now convinced that there is a secret society to which certain right-wing extremists belong that obliges them to defend the police at all costs and at all times. It’s the only way to explain the predictable consistency of some of the comments in both this and the Ferguson threads and the utter contempt for facts and evidence and for the principle of measured response. One really does wonder if there’s anything a police officer could ever do to have them calling for his indictment, unless of course it happens to them personally. Other than that, I don’t think there is. [/QUOTE] I realize he probably meant this tongue in cheek, at least to some extent, but it seems to me that there is a lack of ability on all sides in these debates to simply accepting that not everyone agrees or sees things the way you do (generic you) and ascribe all sorts of motives to this. Plus, I’ve noticed that ‘racist’ seems to be being trotted out a lot in these threads as a counter argument as well and was basically just asking why we can never seem to have a civilized discussion about this subject around here lately (or ever, perhaps). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/165 "2014-12-04T21:09:39Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I know law-abiding black people who average a “routine check” stop six, seven times a year. Often they’re ordered out of their cars. Sometimes they’re walking down the street and are accosted by police who demand to know where they’re going and what they’re doing. Sure hasn’t happened to me - not once, ever - because I’m white. You think it SHOULD happen to everyone? If those are valid tools of policing, then yes. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/166 "2014-12-04T21:11:17Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Is that the only way you can envision to even the playing field here? > > Really? If white criminals are being let off the hook for things that black criminals go to jail for? Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/167 "2014-12-04T21:12:22Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Is there any law against killing a citizen? There are laws against murder, manslaughter, and negligent homicide, but I know of no law against the act of “killing”. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/168 "2014-12-04T21:12:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If those are valid tools of policing, then yes. So are they? Suppose you did nothing wrong and there is no reason to think you did; is it a valid tool of policing to force you out of your car, accuse you of something it is not physically possible for you to have done, and threaten you with weapons to fulfill the police officer’s racial biases? Yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/169 "2014-12-04T21:13:25Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Well, it’s not quite the same, but there was the case of the white homeless guy beaten to death by cops where moments before a Mexican American cop is heard saying to the white guy “See these fists! They are about to fuck you up!” > > I can’t remember if Smapti was in that thread defending the cop or not but I suspect he was doing his usual Schtick. I can’t say I’m familiar with that case. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/170 "2014-12-04T21:15:44Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > So are they? Suppose you did nothing wrong and there is no reason to think you did; is it a valid tool of policing to force you out of your car, accuse you of something it is not physically possible for you to have done, and threaten you with weapons to fulfill the police officer’s racial biases? Yes or no? I cannot imagine a scenario in which all of those conditions are true. If it occurred as you claim, then I would not call that valid. How do you pull over a parked car, BTW? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/171 "2014-12-04T21:32:49Z")
> [@LeaveMeAlone](#): > > Before I start, I’ve been a police officer in a major American city for 10 years… > > You have a man who doesn’t want to go to jail…what do you expect the police to do? Wait? Come back later? What? Please tell me. You’re the cop, the guy is getting arrested and says “Bite me, I ain’t going to jail!” Now what? Is he black or white? How about: Step 1 - Don’t kill him. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/172 "2014-12-04T21:37:16Z")
I’m going to cosign the arguments that have been made about the significance of Mike Brown to this case. I actually think that if it weren’t for that case being broadcast on a national arena (aided in large part by the protests), Eric Garner would not appear so sympathetic. Yeah, black people have been protesting shit like this for years. Especially in NY. I’m so glad that the mainstream is finally starting to listen, but folks need to stop acting like the protests are a new thing that only started with Mike Brown. People have been fed up for a very long time. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/173 "2014-12-04T21:44:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Notwithstanding the fact that cutting off the airway is the entire point of a chokehold, being able to say “I can’t breathe” disproves the assertion that one cannot breathe. Clearly he was lying about not being able to breathe. In fact the jerk’s probably not even dead right now, he’s probably just laid out in the morgue laughing about how he fooled everybody. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/174 "2014-12-04T22:01:29Z")
For what it’s worth, the talking heads of the Right are NOT unanimously supporting the cops in New York as they did Darren WIlson: 1. Glen Beck: “How this cop did not go to jail is beyond me.” [Eric Garner | Mediaite](http://www.mediaite.com/online/glenn-beck-on-garner-how-this-cop-did-not-go-to-jail-is-beyond-me/) 2. Charles Krauthammer: Grand Jury’s decision was “totally incomprehensible” [Fox News - Breaking News Updates | Latest News Headlines | Photos & News Videos](http://insider.foxnews.com/2014/12/03/totally-incomprehensible-charles-krauthammer-says-grand-jury-made-wrong-judgment-nypd) 3. Sean Davis of The Federalist says Officer Pantaleo was guilty of manslaughter [Hands Up, Don't Choke: Eric Garner Was Killed By Police For No Reason](http://thefederalist.com/2014/12/03/hands-up-dont-choke-eric-garner-was-murdered-by-police-for-no-reason/) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/175 "2014-12-04T22:03:53Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Yes, I know. Brown’s death didn’t sufficiently knock the socks off you. We get it. There wasn’t a high res tape showing him executed in cold blood. 'Tis a pity. And he wasn’t a little boy scout. Thus, you and others think it was “misfortunate” so much ado was made over him and not a more pitiable, more recognizable victim. What you are so notably failing to get is that the whole point of protests is to make people generally sympathize with the cause being protested for. If the individual case being touted is problematic, that job is made harder, not easier - yes or no? > [@](#): > > And I’m saying this attitude is problematic on multiple levels. Bad cops flourish when the public thinks like this, as it allows them to abuse anyone that isn’t a choir boy and not catch any flak for it. It also assumes your view of Brown is the correct one, as opposed to a biased one. Many of the protestors think Brown is a recognizable victim. Just as recognizable as Garner, Rice, or anyone else. Again, the point of protests isn’t what the protesters think, it is about changing the opinions of those who aren’t protesting. > [@](#): > > There’s no valid reason to call these protests “misfortunate” when they’ve done a lot to change public awareness about police brutality. They are “misfortunate” _compared with these other cases_ because the case isn’t the strongest - so it is thereby easier (than it would be had another case been the one) for those who are not protesting to dismiss the protesters. > [@](#): > > I haven’t used any, so I don’t know what you’re talking about. Ha! hilarious. 😃 Do you even know what an “ad hom” is? > [@](#): > > Maybe outsiders like you don’t think Brown wasn’t clear-cut enough to warrant a protest. But unless you’re more experienced than they are with the brand of police brutality that they’ve been living with, why should your opinion matter more than theirs? Here, you are addressing your argument to me as a poster (“Maybe outsiders like you …”), rather than to the validity of my facts or arguments. [http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html) > [@](#): > > Example of Ad Hominem > > Bill: “I believe that abortion is morally wrong.” > Dave: “Of course you would say that, you’re a priest.” > Bill: “What about the arguments I gave to support my position?” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/176 "2014-12-04T22:23:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes they did – he died. That’s deadly force. There’s nothing deadlier than killing someone. This statement is wrong. “Deadly force,” is a term of art. It does not follow that any force that produces death is “deadly force” within the meaning of the law. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/177 "2014-12-04T22:25:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This statement is wrong. “Deadly force,” is a term of art. It does not follow that any force that produces death is “deadly force” within the meaning of the law. Like when the police tries to use non-lethal force (like a tazer) and the subject dies anyway, correct? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/178 "2014-12-04T22:27:25Z")
The thing about Ferguson is, to the people who saw it, he didn’t look like an unfavorable guy. No one likely paid attention to what happened before the first shot. They saw a guy run away from getting shot at, and then turning around to surrender when he realized he couldn’t outrun the cop, all the time not having a weapon or anything. And then he was just left there for a long time. They didn’t know about the other issues, and when they started coming up, it looked like the typical attempts to vilify the victim in order to exonerate the cop. I also don’t think the protests are as unfortunate as people think. They did still raise awareness of the issue of the militarization of the police and how they treat minorities. And I think they are largely responsible for the case getting a sort of “fair trial” in front of the grand jury. If all police killings were handled this way, we’d be a lot better off, even if I still don’t find it ideal. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/179 "2014-12-04T22:27:27Z")
> [@LeaveMeAlone](#): > > Ok, so appropriate force, meaning what? baton strikes? Punch him in the face? A taser? And what if the guy still dies? Do you understand how difficult it is to subdue someone? Let alone someone the size of Eric Garner… To quote what I already said … > [@](#): > > Appropriate force" in this case means appropriate under the circumstances - taking into account the dangers to the officers involved, to the public, and to the suspect; using methods of force approved by the professional standards of the police in that jurisdiction. Is any of that controversial? It isn’t a ‘one size fits all’ case - but there are limits, which are imposed, typically, by either the relevant laws or internal police policies. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/180 "2014-12-04T22:31:17Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > The left should be cheering his death. He was involved with cheating the state out of money - the highest of crimes. > > This and other recent events is the result of the left’s attempt to create utopia. This has far less to do with taxes and far more to do with the [_broken windows theory_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory#New_York_City) of law enforcement, > [@](#): > > {…} The sale of loosies had been on Chief of Department Philip Banks’ radar since at least March, when it was discussed at a meeting at Police Headquarters about quality-of-life issues, a police source said. > > Banks’ office also conducted surveillance on Bay St. and took pictures, one of which shows three men believed to be involved in an illegal cigarette sale. The News reviewed the photograph and Garner is not in it. > > At around the same time, on March 27, a caller to the city’s 311 hotline complained about the issue, saying a group of men had been selling untaxed cigarettes, and sometimes marijuana, on Bay St. every day for the past three years, a second source said. > > The caller identified one of the sellers as “a man named Eric.” {…}[RIGHT][CITE](http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/wife-man-filmed-chokehold-arrested-article-1.1893790)[/RIGHT] This and other recent events is not the result of the left’s attempt to create utopia. CMC fnord! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271.md?page=10)