# Why We Fight... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 15, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915 "2004-11-15T19:49:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/61 "2004-11-15T22:27:35Z")
> [@](#): > > [Human rights experts said Friday](http://www.abqtrib.com/archives/news04/111304_news_iraq.shtml) that American soldiers might have committed a war crime on Thursday when they sent fleeing Iraqi civilians back into Fallujah. > > Citing several articles of the Geneva Conventions, the experts said recognized laws of war require military forces to protect civilians as refugees and forbid returning them to a combat zone. > > “This is highly problematical conduct in terms of exposing people to grave danger by returning them to an area where fighting is going on,” said Jordan Paust, a law professor at the University of Houston and a former Army prosecutor. > > James Ross, senior legal adviser to Human Rights Watch, said, “If that’s what happened, it would be a war crime.” > > A stream of refugees, about 300 men, women and children, were detained by American soldiers as they left southern Fallujah by car and on foot. The women and children were allowed to proceed. The men were tested for any residues left by the handling of explosives. All tested negative, but they were sent back. > [@](#): > > [BAGHDAD, Iraq](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041114/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_escaping_fallujah_1) - In the weeks before the crushing military assault on his hometown, Bilal Hussein sent his parents and brother away from Fallujah to stay with relatives. > > The 33-year-old Associated Press photographer stayed behind to capture insider images during the siege of the former insurgent stronghold. > > \ > > Hussein said he panicked, seizing on a plan to escape across the Euphrates River, which flows on the western side of the city… > > Hussein moved from house to house — dodging gunfire — and reached the river. > > “I decided to swim … but I changed my mind after seeing U.S. helicopters firing on and killing people who tried to cross the river.” > > He watched horrified as a family of five was shot dead as they tried to cross. Then, he “helped bury a man by the river bank, with my own hands.” There’s no question that the insurgents that were in Fallujah were truly vile people. But our hands aren’t exactly clean either. And as **Daniel** has already pointed out, we unleashed these thugs on the world. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/62 "2004-11-15T22:33:39Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > **Lobsang** , my previous examples did not stretch “indirectly” too far (although the one above certainly did.) The first one was a near perfect parallel. Think about it, if Japan didn’t attack the US, the US wouldn’t have dropped two atomic bombs on 'em. There are unforseen consequences to every decision. You can blame Bush for creating a mess, but you can’t blame him each time an Iraqi kills a civilian. I can’t see how this argument removes blame from GWB and his administration for those deaths. They didn’t have to invade Iraq. but they did, and now roughly 100,000 people are dead who wouldn’t be dead otherwise. Japan is to blame for pearl harbour and (indirectly) the Nuclear bombs dropped on them (so is America). America[n administration] is to blame for the Iraq war and (indirectly) for making it possible for militants to killl civilians (so are the militants) Blame can be shared. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/63 "2004-11-15T22:35:29Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > **Lobsang** , my previous examples did not stretch “indirectly” too far (although the one above certainly did.) The first one was a near perfect parallel. Think about it, if Japan didn’t attack the US, the US wouldn’t have dropped two atomic bombs on 'em. There are unforseen consequences to every decision. You can blame Bush for creating a mess, but you can’t blame him each time an Iraqi kills a civilian. I can’t see how this argument removes blame from GWB and his administration for those deaths. They didn’t have to invade Iraq. but they did, and now roughly 100,000 people are dead who wouldn’t be dead otherwise. Japan is to blame for pearl harbour and (indirectly) the Nuclear bombs dropped on them (so is America). America[n administration] is to blame for the Iraq war and (indirectly) for making it possible for militants to killl civilians (so are the militants) Blame can be shared. But surely the ultimate blame must lie where the proverbial buck stops. Bush had the ultimate power to cause this. The militants didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/64 "2004-11-15T22:43:39Z")
In short, I believe a person should take responsibility and blame for _every single_ consequence of his/her actions. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Bruce\_Daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Daddy)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/65 "2004-11-15T22:50:42Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > So we invaded Iraq to put an end to the massacres that ended fifteen years previously? Jesus, I always knew the federal bureaucracy moved slowly, but that’s ridiculous. > > Let’s not look at wars from fifteen years previous, wars egged on by the United States _realpolitik_: let’s look at the situation immediately previous. > > After all, I wouldn’t want someone invading the US to put a stop to the carpet-bombings in Vietnam. > > Daniel I wasn’t aware of a statute of limitations for attrocities. Since Mr. Hussien committed the MAJORITY of his crimes fifteen years ago, they aren’t relevant. Understood. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/66 "2004-11-16T03:23:27Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > But surely the ultimate blame must lie where the proverbial buck stops. Bush had the ultimate power to cause this. The militants didn’t. That’s moronic. Bush never disemboweled a woman and left her in the streets. The militants had the “ultimate power” of deciding whether or not they were going to commit the act itself. This woman’s death wasn’t inevitable from the inception of the war. It is the worst kind of conditional morality to try to shift blame to someone you don’t like to make a political point. Your position that somehow Bush should shoulder more of the blame than the monsters that actually commited the atrocity is addle-brained, disingenuous, and borderline inhuman. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/67 "2004-11-16T03:40:20Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Your position that somehow Bush should shoulder more of the blame than the monsters that actually commited the atrocity is addle-brained, disingenuous, and borderline inhuman. I am not saying take the blame away from the monsters. I am saying bush is also to blame. Bush created a situation where these monsters could do this. How is it inhumane to put the overall blame on the one guy who’s one decision ultimately led to these 100,000 deaths and the situation in which some brainwashed monsters could do that kind of thing that was done to that woman. If There wasn’t a war this attrocity wouldn’t have been possible (or at least wouldn’t have happened) Bush created the war, therefore bush gets the blame. And to be honest. I dislike bush (he’s a conservative religious fundamentalist and I am a liberal atheist) but I reserve my deepest negative feelings for the islamic fundamentalists who do these things. I am in internal conflict whether to _hate_ them or not. ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/68 "2004-11-16T03:46:24Z")
Ryan Liam is right and nobody is addressing it because you know he is right. There have been plenty of resistance movements where the “insurgents” didn’t go around mutilating or beheading people. When you factor in a cutthroat culture favoring a show of force and power, and a religion based on said culture, that’s when you start seeing acts of savagery. It’s true that throughout history there have been cutthroat cultures, and Medieval Christian Europe is no exception. What I’m getting at is that cutthroat cultures in the modern day aren’t as common, but the Arab world is a prime example of one. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/69 "2004-11-16T03:47:06Z")
There will always be fundementalist idiots with knives and guns who have the will to do horrible things. There always has been. And I will always consider them inhuman and a problem. But how often does a President of the most powerful nation on earth attack a nation with virtually no military capability based on lies and some feeble truths, causing many thousands of innocent deaths, and a situation where said fundementalist idiots have a free reign to do what they do. Presidents shouldn’t do things like this. We can’t avoid there being fundementalists with intent to cause harm. We can avoid electing them as President. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/70 "2004-11-16T04:02:45Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > That someone is often me, **Roseworm**. If you doubt this, I suggest you check out my posting history. > > I’ll go out on a limb and say nobody has more respect for the military on this board than me. (Lots of folks, however, are tied.) There are plenty of us here who respect them. > [@MR. Moto](#): > > It also shows insufficient respect for people who are indeed our enemy, and others unfortunate enough to live in a war zone. > > I support this conflict, but I sure don’t do so blindly. Open your damn eyes, and you may indeed flinch. Damn right. The people who did this are monsters who deserve destruction. However, they are not everyone over there, any more than the few bad ones on our side represent everyone. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/71 "2004-11-16T04:08:51Z")
> [@Roseworm](#): > > It is _easy_ to take a stand when everyone shares your opinion. That much at least is true. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/72 "2004-11-16T04:24:07Z")
**Roseworm** ’s posts are verbal equivalents of the anti-semitic/anti-Kraut/anti-Jap posters of the 1930s and '40s. I shudder at the sight of all of them. I wish that **Worm** ’s posting access would be limited so that I no longer get that odd heaving sensation in my stomach I often feel when viewing such inhumanity. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/73 "2004-11-16T04:24:11Z")
Bush is also to blame??? Had he not…and don’t tell me congress said he could…that’s bullshit, sent our tropps in…none of this would have happened. None…get that? None. Your reading this wormwood? ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/74 "2004-11-16T04:30:16Z")
**Reeder** shouldn’t there be a ‘not’ in that first sentence? (judging by the rest of the post) ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/75 "2004-11-16T05:06:32Z")
> [@Bruce\_Daddy](#): > > There sure are a lot of “car bombs” in that list. Can someone point me to an article where the US started using car bombs as a weapons? Thanks. Car bombs and dismembering women are very different actions. If a car bomb’s main target is a military one (or an official), then there’s no difference with, for instance, a missile launched against insurgents or against one of their leaders. In both cases there’s a “legitimate” target, and in both cases, there are “collateral damages”. Are you under the belief that “low-tech” weapons like car bombs are somehow worst than high tech weapons like missiles? So, what you should consider is the targets of these bombings, rather than thinking car bombs = criminals, tanks = heroes. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/76 "2004-11-16T05:14:57Z")
> [@Alexander the Grape](#): > > Yes, this is precisely my point. I’m not trying to justify the actions of the individuals who tortured this woman, but the root cause of this event still lies in the hands of the invaders. > . I’m not convinced. The root cause might be the invasion, but some actions are just barbaric, and don’t even seem to serve any purpose. Dismembering women doesn’t seem to me a logical consequence of an invasion, anymore than, say, murdering your much disliked neighbor, because you think you can get away with it given the general confusion and disorder. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/77 "2004-11-16T05:35:34Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Weird, I don’t remember the French resistance mutilating bodies of women when they were under German Occupation. Even if it was just the Germans mutilating French women in order to demoralize a population that outnumbered them the message is the same: Mess with us and you can expect more of this. But there were atrocities on both sides. While my father was escaping Switzerland he was helped through France by the Resistance. One day they set free some German soldiers they had captured then shot them as they ran away. This, they said, was in reprisal for the death of the sister of one of the fighters. She had been captured and raped with a broomstick studded with nails. ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/78 "2004-11-16T05:41:33Z")
Jesus H. Christ, which of those two do you think is worse? Raping an INNOCENT woman with a broomstick, studded with nails, resulting in her death, or shooting soldiers in reprisal for said rape? Don’t tell me the shooting of the soldiers was an “atrocity.” If anything, it was a mercy. They died thinking that they would escape. They should have suffered 100-fold for what they did. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/79 "2004-11-16T05:53:04Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > Jesus H. Christ, which of those two do you think is worse? Raping an INNOCENT woman with a broomstick, studded with nails, resulting in her death, or shooting soldiers in reprisal for said rape? > > Don’t tell me the shooting of the soldiers was an “atrocity.” If anything, it was a mercy. They died thinking that they would escape. They should have suffered 100-fold for what they did. Notice, he never said that the soldiers who were shot were the ones who did it. Geneva convention… alas, I knew thee well. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/80 "2004-11-16T05:56:52Z")
Okay, okay, you’re all getting a bit out of hand. The death (however unpleasant) of a woman, even a “western” one- interesting phrasing, **Rosewood** - is not justification for any other deaths, except _perhaps_ those of individuals who can be proven to have caused it. However, calling the troops baby-killers and so forth is a bit much. Yes, some of them are probably arseholes, but I seriously doubt that they appear in the same number in the US Army that they do among fanatics of any stripe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915.md?page=5)