# Why We Fight... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 15, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915 "2004-11-15T19:49:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/101 "2004-11-16T13:24:36Z")
**Airman Doors, USAF** I think you’ve said it better than any us ever could do. I’m in Qatar right now (probably the safest place in the world, right now) and I’m not in the military. I certainly wouldn’t want to be any further North. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/102 "2004-11-16T13:29:28Z")
> [@Alexander the Grape](#): > > Yes, this is precisely my point. I’m not trying to justify the actions of the individuals who tortured this woman, but the root cause of this event still lies in the hands of the invaders. > > They are guilty, but so are we. Moronic, blame shifting, and illlogical. The “root cause” of my going on an office killing spree might be that my boss is a jerk but that doesn’t mean he “caused” me to take the action I took. In such a case I would have made the choice to be a homocidal maniac. The scum that killed this woman decided to be murderers. No one forced that decision upon them. Do you really think folks that are willing to disembowel a woman would have otherwise spent their lives in peaceful contemplation of their navels? One wrong act does not justify any other wrong act. Each party bears the blame only for their own actions not the actions of others. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/103 "2004-11-16T13:37:16Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > This sort of comment is every bit as stupid as the OP. This is not “good vs. evil,” not brave patriots fighting American invaders or noble Americans fighting wicked rebels. There are not two sides, but about a half-dozen. > > Ba’athist diehards. > Sunni jihadists recruited from outside Iraq to fight the Americans > Shi’a rebels who want dominance over the Sunni and a theocratic state > Sunni Iraqis who want to get rid of both the Americans and the outsider guerillas. > Kurds who want their own country > The Americans, who are clueless and confused > > I’m sure I’m leaving out the finer details, but that’s just a brief overview. > > It’s an insanely complex situation, and the pacxk of you who think this can be boiled down to an “us vs. them” scenario are simple-minded naifs. No, it’s not. Are you for or against partial birth abortion? You voted for it. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/104 "2004-11-16T13:38:48Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > One wrong act does not justify any other wrong act. Do you believe it’s _possible_ in any way, shape, or form that one wrong act could influence another? Yes or no will be fine. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/105 "2004-11-16T13:40:13Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > We’ll it’s sort of a beacon for all the terrorists in the world after the huge power vacuum we created. Of course if it had become some perfect utopia, _that_ would have been our responsibility. Well that is the nature of people. They want to take credit for success and deny responsibility for failure. > [@](#): > > What really bothers me is this simpleton thinking. I don’t know if things are “better or worse” now of before SH, but I do know that both eras really, _really_ suck rocks. I don’t find the _hundreds of billions_, the loss of credibility, and the tens of thousands dead (both sides) to be worth _taking a giant step sideways_. That’s the sad part. Iraq is the same place as 10 years ago, just under new management, but the US is _much worse_ off. Well one thing was certainly sure that if Saddam had been left in power then his sons would have succeded him and the suckiness of that would have lasted another generation or two. > [@](#): > > History will prove this venture wasn’t worth it, but like WMD, some of you slow motherfuckers won’t get it until they’re bludgeoned with cold hard reality. Well, I hope you don’t think I am in the slow category because I agree with you that the US shouldn’t have gone into Iraq. They don’t have the cojones to do what is necessary to subdue a population with the type of culture that exists in the ME and then stay the course long enough to re-educate the populace. > [@](#): > > No, the assumption is we can’t just roll in and “make it a beacon for the world”. They don’t want our democracy, and I don’t entirely blame them. Sorry, but the US isn’t the one who can make them a beacon of enlightenment. That is up to the Iraqis. No one else. They had the opportunity when Saddam was deposed (and I agree they most likely didn’t have the ability to do so given the conditions), but the nuts stepped in and co-opted it. Really all the US can do now is create an Iraqi force that will then deal with the terrorists and nuts in their own way, or give each interest group their own little piece of territory where they can be as brutal or enlightened as they desire. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/106 "2004-11-16T13:49:41Z")
> [@Bruce\_Daddy](#): > > I wasn’t aware of a statute of limitations for attrocities. Since Mr. Hussien committed the MAJORITY of his crimes fifteen years ago, they aren’t relevant. Understood. Glad it’s understood–otherwise, you’ve got a hard time explaining all the countries we haven’t invaded. Personally, I think you’re mixing apples and oranges here. Saddam’s culpability for his old crimes is uncontroversial: I think you’ll find precious few people that want him set free now that he’s captured. But that’s got nothing to do with what I’m saying. I’m saying that his capture wasn’t worth killing off an additional 14,000 people to achieve, since his major atrocities (the ones supported with US weaponry, remember) were in the distant past. Had he been continuing this program of major atrocities, there would’ve been a stronger case for invading Iraq–a case almost as strong as the case for invading Sudan. But he wasn’t continuing it, and achieving justice for him isn’t worth the ultimate denial of justice to fourteen thousand people. > [@Uzi](#): > > This attitude always confuses me. People make choices and those choices are theirs alone and no one elses. > > If I am walking down the street and I see a women, I guess I have the choice of ignoring her, saying hello, or chopping her extremities off. Indeed you do. Once more: **the guilt of this woman’s murderers is undiminished**. Please acknowledge I’ve said this. However, in your example, let’s say that you were a convicted serial kiler who’d been in jail, and the governor of your state had granted you clemency for some bullshit reason, maybe to prove some point he had about the penal system. Let’s say you then chop up some woman on the street. Sure, you’re guilty for the murder. **Are you telling me nobody’s gonna get mad at the governor**? That’s what happened here. The US **knew** these terrorists existed. US advisors were saying, “Look, if we invade the country in this manner, bloody fucking chaos will erupt!” But the administration wanted to prove a point about their military philosophy, so they prosecuted the war in the manner than led to bloody fucking chaos. And **that’s** what I hold them accountable for. That, and the airstrikes and other assaults that have killed innocent civilians. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/107 "2004-11-16T13:51:07Z")
And **Airman** , thank you for that post, grim though it is. My best wishes for your safety and for all of y’all’s speedy return home. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/108 "2004-11-16T14:36:02Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Well that is the nature of people. They want to take credit for success and deny responsibility for failure. And that is one of many attributes that makes “people” assholes. > [@](#): > > Well one thing was certainly sure that if Saddam had been left in power then his sons would have succeded him and the suckiness of that would have lasted another generation or two. This isn’t certain at all. IIRC Uday was shot the fuck up pretty nice some years back. Who knows it wouldn’t happen again. > [@](#): > > Well, I hope you don’t think I am in the slow category because I agree with you that the US shouldn’t have gone into Iraq. They don’t have the cojones to do what is necessary to subdue a population with the type of culture that exists in the ME and then stay the course long enough to re-educate the populace. No, didn’t mean to imply _you_ were slow. > [@](#): > > Really all the US can do now is create an Iraqi force that will then deal with the terrorists and nuts in their own way, or give each interest group their own little piece of territory where they can be as brutal or enlightened as they desire. What if those “brutal little territories” collectively become worse then SH? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/109 "2004-11-16T14:56:08Z")
> [@Alexander the Grape](#): > > If America were invaded by superior forces, we’d resort to such tactics to dishearten the aggressors as well. Yeah, my history class had a whole unit on the dismemberments and disembowelments of the British POWs in the War of 1812… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/110 "2004-11-16T15:01:30Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Do you believe it’s _possible_ in any way, shape, or form that one wrong act could influence another? > > Yes or no will be fine. Irrelevant question. Influence is not control. In my office shooting rampage hypothetical example, my mean boss influenced me but my response was not forced upon me. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/111 "2004-11-16T15:09:37Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > However, in your example, let’s say that you were a convicted serial kiler who’d been in jail, and the governor of your state had granted you clemency for some bullshit reason, maybe to prove some point he had about the penal system. Let’s say you then chop up some woman on the street. > > Sure, you’re guilty for the murder. **Are you telling me nobody’s gonna get mad at the governor**? > > That’s what happened here. The US **knew** these terrorists existed. US advisors were saying, “Look, if we invade the country in this manner, bloody fucking chaos will erupt!” But the administration wanted to prove a point about their military philosophy, so they prosecuted the war in the manner than led to bloody fucking chaos. > > And **that’s** what I hold them accountable for. The examples are not comparable. In the serial killer scenario the governor did have control and unwisely relenquished it. The murderers of that woman were never under US control. An assumption is being made that if the US had never invaded Iraq, they never would have had an excuse to indulge in their homocidal tendencies. That’s an unlikely assumption. It is most likely that the killers are not even Iraqi but terrorists from other regions drawn to the conflict. The invasion of Iraq may have set the place of the murder but not having an invasion would not have stopped them from killing someone somewhere on behalf of their cause. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/112 "2004-11-16T15:18:42Z")
> [@litost](#): > > No, it’s not. Are you for or against partial birth abortion? You voted for it. Holy non sequitur, Batman! The Iraq situation IS complex, as I just demonstrated. Your lack of comprehension is your problem. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/113 "2004-11-16T15:22:07Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > Yeah, my history class had a whole unit on the dismemberments and disembowelments of the British POWs in the War of 1812… :rolleyes: That’s a very progressive text book, though I’m certain that very few of the Britian’s Indian allies were taken prisoner. I do not think we are going to find a country, the mighty US included, that can conduct a war without atrocities. War _is_ an atrocity. That’s why everyone from Sun Tzu to Churchill insist that it not be entered into lightly. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/114 "2004-11-16T15:22:39Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > Irrelevant question. Influence is not control. In my office shooting rampage hypothetical example, my mean boss influenced me but my response was not forced upon me. Totally relevant question. No one said control, we said influence. Did your boss being an asshole _contribute_ to the killing spree? Yes. Same in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/115 "2004-11-16T15:44:50Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Totally relevant question. No one said control, we said influence. Did your boss being an asshole _contribute_ to the killing spree? Yes. > > Same in Iraq. My boss wouldn’t have been guilty of anything other than being an asshole. My going on a killing spree is not a logical consequence to his actions. My quitting or filing a lawsuit is a logical consequence of his actions. Shooting coworkers who had nothing to do with the situation isn’t. Do a pair of parents killed by their son because they refused to buy him a car share the guilt of their own deaths? Their not buying him a car contributed to their deaths after all. Such scenarios can not go very far without revealing their absurdity. An excuse for barbarism is just that, an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/116 "2004-11-16T16:00:03Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > The murderers of that woman were never under US control. An assumption is being made that if the US had never invaded Iraq, they never would have had an excuse to indulge in their homocidal tendencies. That’s an unlikely assumption. It is most likely that the killers are not even Iraqi but terrorists from other regions drawn to the conflict. The invasion of Iraq may have set the place of the murder but not having an invasion would not have stopped them from killing someone somewhere on behalf of their cause. Why is that assumption unlikely? Why do you assume the killers are not Iraqi? Why do you assume that they were terrorists two years prior to today? People share responsibility for the predictable outcomes of their decisions. One predictable outcome of the decision to invade Iraq was that a bloody, awful, protracted civil war would develop. We appear to be in the beginning stages of that bloody, awful, protracted civil war. The US shares responsibility for this predictable outcome. Fine. You don’t like my serial killer example? How’sabout this: the government decides to increase the legal blood alcohol limit for drivers to 0.20%. Drunk driving deaths increase threefold. Is the government at all responsible? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/117 "2004-11-16T16:00:38Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > Yeah, my history class had a whole unit on the dismemberments and disembowelments of the British POWs in the War of 1812… :rolleyes: Generally one of the criteria for determining whether a force is a superior is _whether you lost_, smart guy. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/118 "2004-11-16T16:07:56Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > An assumption is being made that if the US had never invaded Iraq, they never would have had an excuse to indulge in their homocidal tendencies. That’s an unlikely assumption. It is most likely that the killers are not even Iraqi but terrorists from other regions drawn to the conflict. Apparently less than 1.5% of the people that they have detained are foreign to Iraq. [http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/la-fg-fighters16nov16,0,19927.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines](http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/la-fg-fighters16nov16,0,19927.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines) > [@](#): > > CAMP FALLOUJA, Iraq — The battle for the city of Fallouja is giving U.S. military commanders some insight into this country’s insurgency, painting a portrait of a home-grown uprising dominated by Iraqis, not foreign fighters. > > Of the more than 1,000 men between the ages of 15 and 55 who were captured in intense fighting in the center of the insurgency over the last week, just 15 are confirmed foreign fighters, Gen. George W. Casey, the top U.S. ground commander in Iraq, said Monday. I suppose you could argue that there is some reason why the particular murderers of this particular woman were foreign born, but it looks like plenty of people native to Iraq are considered suspected insurgents by the US forces. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/119 "2004-11-16T16:35:46Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > My boss wouldn’t have been guilty of anything other than being an asshole. The fact remains that being an asshole played a factor in his death. You’re going to look me straight in the eye and ay they had _absolutely nothing_ to do with each other? Bolding mine > [@](#): > > Do a pair of parents killed by their son because they refused to buy him a car share the guilt of their own deaths? **Their not buying him a car contributed to their deaths after all**. Please point out where I talked about guilt, I’m arguing a different point. I just said (and as you’ve said) that things can be interrelated, which for some odd reason you seemed to deny. > [@](#): > > An excuse for barbarism is just that, an excuse. We can deduce that there were contributing factors to that barbarism. Perhaps analyzing them will yield some clues as to how to prevent or minimize barbarism in the future. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/120 "2004-11-16T16:50:03Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > Yeah, my history class had a whole unit on the dismemberments and disembowelments of the British POWs in the War of 1812… :rolleyes: You just can’t know. People are going to do mightily evil stuff when pissed off and left to their own devices. Think about lynchings, for instance. Drop some bombs on a US city, then remove the police forces. I wouldn’t bet a walnut on the populace not massacring some random people just because they look arab, or immigrated from the country that dropped the bombs. American people aren’t some sort of saints. They’re like other people all over the planet. And people all over the planet rarely miss a chance to take revenge on whoever is available to be cut into pieces and can somehow be related to whatever harm they feel they have suffered from. There are some “good” people, there are some “evil” people, and there are a lot of otherwise fine people that will turn into butchers if given some reason to do so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915.md?page=7)