# Why We Fight... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 15, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915 "2004-11-15T19:49:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/121 "2004-11-16T16:53:52Z")
> [@TonyF](#): > > Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Thank you. That about covers it. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/122 "2004-11-16T17:18:58Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > American people aren’t some sort of saints. They’re like other people all over the planet. And people all over the planet rarely miss a chance to take revenge on whoever is available to be cut into pieces and can somehow be related to whatever harm they feel they have suffered from. Partially in response to the assertion that atrocities committed in Nazi Germany could not happen in America, Stanley Milgram conducted an experiment in which study participants were asked to deliver electric shocks to what they believed was another study participant as part of a learning task (in actuality, no real shocks were administered). Roughly two-thirds proceeded to administer shocks to the end of the scale (450 volts), despite indications on the scale of danger associated with such a level. Americans are no different than anyone else in the world. Some of these threads and some discussion I have heard recently have caused me to wonder if we are _more_ given to mindless obedience and conformity than others, but rationally speaking I don’t believe so. [http://www.cba.uri.edu/Faculty/dellabitta/mr415s98/EthicEtcLinks/Milgram.htm](http://www.cba.uri.edu/Faculty/dellabitta/mr415s98/EthicEtcLinks/Milgram.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/123 "2004-11-16T17:27:31Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Why is that assumption unlikely? Why do you assume the killers are not Iraqi? Why do you assume that they were terrorists two years prior to today? Because Jordanian Islamist Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi has been the one to claim credit for the kidnapping of Westerners and executing them. If not for Iraq, Zarqawi and his thugs would still have been killing someone somewhere. > [@](#): > > One predictable outcome of the decision to invade Iraq was that a bloody, awful, protracted civil war would develop. We appear to be in the beginning stages of that bloody, awful, protracted civil war. The US shares responsibility for this predictable outcome. If Iraq falls into a civil war, then yes, the US bears responsibilty (as do those who choose to slaughter each other.) Civil war was a predictable outcome possibility. But arguing that the US should not act because some pyschos might do something crazy is a game of futility. By their very nature, pyschos are unpredictable and one should not be basing global decisions on how they might respond. There are plenty of valid reasons to argue against the war without having to resort to blaming the US for the murderous actions of lunatics. > [@](#): > > Fine. You don’t like my serial killer example? How’sabout this: the government decides to increase the legal blood alcohol limit for drivers to 0.20%. Drunk driving deaths increase threefold. Is the government at all responsible? Sure. How about this? The government puts floride in the water. A small group decides that this is an effort to assert mind control over them and launch a bloody revolution attempt that peters out after a few hundred deaths in six states. Is the government responsible? Cause and effect is rarely that easy to determine as is predicting alternative future outcomes. And basing decisions on what lunatics may or may not do is a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/124 "2004-11-16T17:30:46Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Please point out where I talked about guilt, I’m arguing a different point. I just said (and as you’ve said) that things can be interrelated, which for some odd reason you seemed to deny. I do not deny it. I think we are miscommunicating and I suspect the confusion is probably on my end. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/125 "2004-11-16T17:34:46Z")
Well, it’s just been confirmed that Margaret Hassan has been murdered. A big FUCK YOU to the motherfuckers who did this. Margaret Hassan lived in Iraq for THIRTY fucking YEARS. She was originally from Dublin, Ireland, but held British and Iraqi citizenship. She had been working as an aid worker in Iraq for the past thirteen years. Ordinary Iraqis protested on the streets for her release, but to no avail. So, a big FUCK YOU to the people who, through unrestrained adventurism and poorly conceived strategy, allowed these motherfuckers to run riot. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/126 "2004-11-16T17:40:30Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > So, a big FUCK YOU to the people who, through unrestrained adventurism and poorly conceived strategy, allowed these motherfuckers to run riot. President Bush called, he said “Yeeeeha! Bring it on! Stay the course! Mission accomplished!” Then he rode off into the sunset. At least, that’s what I think happened. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/127 "2004-11-16T18:14:34Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > Because Jordanian Islamist Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi has been the one to claim credit for the kidnapping of Westerners and executing them. If not for Iraq, Zarqawi and his thugs would still have been killing someone somewhere. And here’s where the rabbithole goes deeper. Are you aware that well _before_ the invasion we had this guys location in Northern Iraq? Did you know the Pentagon drew up plans to take him out and was rejected by the Bush admin? Did you know that the Pentagon went back _two more_ times with plans to kill him? No one knows the reasoning behind the decisions, but it’s commonly held that killing him would have taken away a big reason for invasion. Talk about fucked up eh? ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/128 "2004-11-16T18:36:54Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Holy non sequitur, Batman! The Iraq situation IS complex, as I just demonstrated. Your lack of comprehension is your problem. Hey, I was agreeing with you. I was drawing a parallel to one of the presidential debates where Kerry explained why he didn’t vote for a bill and Bush came out with the Yes/No black/white retort. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/129 "2004-11-16T18:37:26Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > Because Jordanian Islamist Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi has been the one to claim credit for the kidnapping of Westerners and executing them. If not for Iraq, Zarqawi and his thugs would still have been killing someone somewhere. Wrong, as detailed above this post. > [@](#): > > If Iraq falls into a civil war, then yes, the US bears responsibilty (as do those who choose to slaughter each other.) Civil war was a predictable outcome possibility. But arguing that the US should not act because some pyschos might do something crazy is a game of futility. By their very nature, pyschos are unpredictable and one should not be basing global decisions on how they might respond. Whu? Huh? These guys **are** part of the resistance in Iraq. Their actions were perfectly predictable. Just because they’re atrocious doesn’t mean they’re crazy. On the contrary, they’re trying to intimidate Westerners into leaving. Plenty of people predicted this kind of shit would happen. > [@](#): > > Sure. How about this? The government puts floride in the water. A small group decides that this is an effort to assert mind control over them and launch a bloody revolution attempt that peters out after a few hundred deaths in six states. Is the government responsible? > > Cause and effect is rarely that easy to determine as is predicting alternative future outcomes. And basing decisions on what lunatics may or may not do is a waste of time. Did the government know that this group was likely to launch a bloody revolution attempt? Did they know that there were alternative ways to achieve the goal of dental health that were far less likely to cause hundreds of deaths? If so, then yes, the government is responsible. It doesn’t matter whether you’re trying to predict the actions of crazy people. Sometimes even lunatics are predictable, and when they are, you share responsibility for the predictable consequences of your decisions. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/130 "2004-11-16T18:48:16Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Whu? Huh? These guys **are** part of the resistance in Iraq. Yup. [There’s not many foreigners among them:](http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-506971.php) > [@](#): > > Col. Michael Regner, operations chief for the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, said in a conference call with reporters at the Defense Department that 1,052 people had been detained at last count. > > Of that total, he said at least **1,030 were Iraqis, meaning only about 20 were foreigners**. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/131 "2004-11-16T19:25:26Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Wrong, as detailed above this post. IF, as World Eater suggests, the Bush administartion passed on an opportunity to kill al-Zarqawi when it had the opportunity to do so, then I suppose one could argue that the administration bears some responsibility for al-Zarqawi’s continued murdering rampage. However, if the Bush administration had killed al-Zarqawi before the Iraq war, then I have no doubt that folks on this board would be decrying that as an unlawful act and the predictable revenge killings that would follow would then also be blamed on the US. What I’ve learned here is that it’s all the US’s fault. Murdered your spouse? US’s fault for its actions raising your stress levels. Locusts eating your crops? US’s fault. If only the US had sent some locust fighting aid to your nation but it was greedy and didn’t. Curdled milk? US’s fault for failing to provide refridgeration. I can’t think of anything that happens in the world that isn’t the US’s fault at least indirectly. Perhaps earthquakes… > [@](#): > > Did the government know that this group was likely to launch a bloody revolution attempt? Did they know that there were alternative ways to achieve the goal of dental health that were far less likely to cause hundreds of deaths? If so, then yes, the government is responsible. Ah but see the government was secretly giving into a dentist terrorist organization that was threatening to go on a bombing campaign if flouride wasn’t added to the drinking water. Any action or inaction can be used as an excuse for an atrocity. No matter what the US does or doesn’t do, it’s the US’s fault. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t matter whether you’re trying to predict the actions of crazy people. Sometimes even lunatics are predictable, and when they are, you share responsibility for the predictable consequences of your decisions. And yet I don’t think you are willing to allow your actions to be dictated by the crazy person on your block who insists that you pee your pants or he’ll throw a rock through your neighbor’s window. Which is a shame because the resulting broken window is a predictable consequence of your inaction. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/132 "2004-11-16T19:39:47Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > IF, as World Eater suggests, the Bush administartion passed on an opportunity to kill al-Zarqawi when it had the opportunity to do so, then I suppose one could argue that the administration bears some responsibility for al-Zarqawi’s continued murdering rampage. However, if the Bush administration had killed al-Zarqawi before the Iraq war, then I have no doubt that folks on this board would be decrying that as an unlawful act and the predictable revenge killings that would follow would then also be blamed on the US. Perhaps we can test this hypothesis by looking at the reaction to the killing of an alleged terrorist using a predator drone in Oman, if I recall correctly. I don’t remember there being a marked outcry against this. I could be wrong, but it should serve as a good test of your allegation. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/133 "2004-11-16T19:46:02Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > What I’ve learned here is that it’s all the US’s fault. And what I’ve learned is that you either can’t read or you can’t be bothered to be honest about what your opponents are arguing. Yet again: \*\*Once more: the guilt of this woman’s murderers is undiminished. Please acknowledge I’ve said this. [/quote] > [@](#): > > Murdered your spouse? US’s fault for its actions raising your stress levels. Is the murder a predictable consequence of the US’s decisions? Almost certainly not, so bullshit. > [@](#): > > Locusts eating your crops? US’s fault. See above. > [@](#): > > Curdled milk? US’s fault for failing to provide refridgeration. I can’t think of anything that happens in the world that isn’t the US’s fault at least indirectly. Perhaps earthquakes… Again, see above. > [@](#): > > And yet I don’t think you are willing to allow your actions to be dictated by the crazy person on your block who insists that you pee your pants or he’ll throw a rock through your neighbor’s window. Which is a shame because the resulting broken window is a predictable consequence of your inaction. If you’ll disrespect me, I’ve got no problem telling you that you’re being an obnoxious little fuck. And that’s what you’re being. But I’ll spell it out for you. If I give in to the lunatic, then the lunatic is emboldened to make worse demands, creating more harm in the world. That’s a foreseeable consequence of my decision, so I share responsibility for it. Sometimes there’s no winning decision to make, so you make what you think will lead to the best consequences. The US, in this case, chose a series of actions that predictably led to a mess. For some reason, probably rah-rah jingoism, you can’t possibly admit that the US shares responsibility for the mess. That’s pretty damned stupid. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/134 "2004-11-16T19:48:18Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > IF, as World Eater suggests, the Bush administartion passed on an opportunity to kill al-Zarqawi when it had the opportunity to do so, then I suppose one could argue that the administration bears some responsibility for al-Zarqawi’s continued murdering rampage. One could argue? Bush passes up _THREE_ seperate chances to kill the guy, because we need him alive to say AQ actually exists in Iraq, and we need to invade. Then we invade and this fucker is causing total meyhem, and _one could argue_ Bush fucked up? It’s crystal clear that he fucked up. > [@](#): > > However, if the Bush administration had killed al-Zarqawi before the Iraq war, then I have no doubt that folks on this board would be decrying that as an unlawful act and the predictable revenge killings that would follow would then also be blamed on the US. I bet post 9/11 (IIRC they could have killed Zarqawi in 2003), no one would have had a problem with it. In fact this is the type of war we need to be fighting. Quietly kill the fucking guy one night with a Predator drone and let that be the end of it. Who knows, if we had done that and only that, we might have accomplished more safetywise then this whole Iraq thing. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/135 "2004-11-16T20:17:57Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > One could argue? Bush passes up _THREE_ seperate chances to kill the guy, because we need him alive to say AQ actually exists in Iraq, and we need to invade. Then we invade and this fucker is causing total meyhem, and _one could argue_ Bush fucked up? It’s crystal clear that he fucked up. Ok. One could argue it quite well. Was just trying not to be partisan. > [@](#): > > I bet post 9/11 (IIRC they could have killed Zarqawi in 2003), no one would have had a problem with it. In fact this is the type of war we need to be fighting. Quietly kill the fucking guy one night with a Predator drone and let that be the end of it. Who knows, if we had done that and only that, we might have accomplished more safetywise then this whole Iraq thing. I recall quite a stir when the US offed some members of Al Qaeda in Yemen with a Predator drone. I believe some members of this board declared it to be murder. For me, if it means avoiding a massive war, I’m all about offing our known enemies with drones. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/136 "2004-11-16T20:19:10Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Perhaps we can test this hypothesis by looking at the reaction to the killing of an alleged terrorist using a predator drone in Oman, if I recall correctly. I don’t remember there being a marked outcry against this. I could be wrong, but it should serve as a good test of your allegation. Yemen. And I don’t remember one either. Surprisingly, someone claiming to be Al Zaqarwi [called for her release](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3987913.stm) a few weeks ago. Whether it was him sincerely, him cynically, or someone else exploiting the situation, we may never know, but he never issued a rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/137 "2004-11-16T20:45:02Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > I recall quite a stir when the US offed some members of Al Qaeda in Yemen with a Predator drone. I believe some members of this board declared it to be murder. I don’t recall much of a stink. I don’t recall much of a stink going into Afghanistan either. This should indicate that we’re fully with dishing out the asskicking when needed, and in the proper place. > [@](#): > > For me, if it means avoiding a massive war, I’m all about offing our known enemies with drones. Something we can agree on here. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/138 "2004-11-16T22:16:22Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > I recall quite a stir when the US offed some members of Al Qaeda in Yemen with a Predator drone. I believe some members of this board declared it to be murder. Should be an easy enough search to do. If you don’t mind, I’d love to see those names, the context, and your argument that they were representative of any larger movement or group in opposition to that bombing, rather than loonies. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/139 "2004-11-17T00:19:45Z")
> [@Roseworm](#): > > I do not care who you are. Whatever your race, creed or nationality…No matter where you are in the world…If you are in danger, the sweetest thing you will ever see is a US Marine with a rifle heading in your direction. Unless you’re an unarmed, wounded Iraqi POW, of course, when it will be the _last_ thing you ever see. So far as uninformed jingoistic kookery goes, this one’s right up there with the post from last March that justified the ousting of Saddam by saying (paraphrased) “the prisoners in Abu Ghraib will be glad to see him gone … you would be too if you had electrodes attached to your testicles”. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/140 "2004-11-17T00:59:04Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > IF, as World Eater suggests, the Bush administartion passed on an opportunity to kill al-Zarqawi when it had the opportunity to do so, then I suppose one could argue that the administration bears some responsibility for al-Zarqawi’s continued murdering rampage. **IF** , indeed. > [@](#): > > [Questions Mount Over Failure to Hit Zarqawi’s Camp](http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB109866031609354178,00.html?mod=todays_us_page_one) > > By SCOT J. PALTROW > Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL > _October 25, 2004; Page A3_ > > (Subscription required) > > … > > The Pentagon drew up detailed plans in June 2002, giving the administration a series of options for a military strike on the camp Mr. Zarqawi was running then in remote northeastern Iraq, according to generals who were involved directly in planning the attack and several former White House staffers. They said the camp, near the town of Khurmal, was known to contain Mr. Zarqawi and his supporters as well as al Qaeda fighters, all of whom had fled from Afghanistan. Intelligence indicated the camp was training recruits and making poisons for attacks against the West. > > … > > But the raid on Mr. Zarqawi didn’t take place. Months passed with no approval of the plan from the White House, until word came down just weeks before the March 19, 2003, start of the Iraq war that **Mr. Bush had rejected any strike on the camp until after an official outbreak of hostilities with Iraq**. Ultimately, the camp was hit just after the invasion of Iraq began. > > Lisa Gordon-Hagerty, who was in **the White House as the National Security Council’s director for combatting terrorism** at the time, said an NSC working group, led by the Defense Department, had been in charge of reviewing the plans to target the camp. She \*\*said the camp was “definitely a stronghold, and we knew that certain individuals were there including Zarqawi.” \*\* Ms. Gordon-Hagerty said she wasn’t part of the working group and never learned the reason why the camp wasn’t hit. But she said that much later, when reports surfaced that Mr. Zarqawi was behind a series of bloody attacks in Iraq, she said “I remember my response,” adding, “I said why didn’t we get that [‘son of a b-’] when we could.” > > \ > > Some former officials said the intelligence on Mr. Zarqawi’s whereabouts was sound. In addition, retired Gen. John M. Keane, the U.S. Army’s vice chief of staff when the strike was considered, said that because the camp was isolated in the thinly populated, mountainous borderlands of northeastern Iraq, the risk of collateral damage was minimal. Former military officials said that adding to the target’s allure was intelligence indicating that Mr. Zarqawi himself was in the camp at the time. A strike at the camp, they believed, meant at least a chance of killing or incapacitating him. > > Gen. Keane characterized the camp “as one of the best targets we ever had,” and questioned the decision not to attack it. When the U.S. did strike the camp a day after the war started, Mr. Zarqawi, many of his followers and Kurdish extremists belonging to his organization already had fled, people involved with intelligence say. > > … > > **Gen. Tommy Franks** , who was commander of the U.S. Central Command and who lately has been campaigning on behalf of Mr. Bush, **suggests in his recently published memoir, “American Soldier,” that Mr. Zarqawi was known to have been in the camp during the months before the war**. Gen. Franks declined to be interviewed or answer written questions for this article. In referring to several camps in northern Iraq occupied by al Qaeda fighters who had fled Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban, Gen. Franks wrote: “These camps were examples of the terrorist ‘harbors’ that President Bush had vowed to crush. One known terrorist, a Jordanian-born Palestinian named Abu Musab Zarqawi who had joined al Qaeda in Afghanistan – where he specialized in developing chemical and biological weapons – was now confirmed to operate from one of the camps in Iraq.” Gen. Franks’s book doesn’t mention the plans to target the camp. > > Questions about whether the U.S. missed an opportunity to take out Mr. Zarqawi have been enhanced recently by a CIA report on Mr. Zarqawi, commissioned by Vice President Dick Cheney. **Individuals who have been briefed on the report’s contents say it specifically cites evidence that Mr. Zarqawi was in the camp during those prewar months**. They said the CIA’s conclusion was based in part on a review of electronic intercepts, which show that Mr. Zarqawi was using a satellite telephone to discuss matters relating to the camp, and that the intercepts indicated the probability that the calls were being made from inside the camp. But let me repeat… **Mr. Bush had rejected any strike on the camp until after an official outbreak of hostilities with Iraq.** I won’t even address the rest of your assinine post – it’s not worth letting your rude and unfounded accusations piss me off any more than I already am over this bullshit war. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915.md?page=8)