# Why We Fight... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 15, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915 "2004-11-15T19:49:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/141 "2004-11-17T01:31:38Z")
My $0.02: Cent No. 1: I despise the media. Simply because all of the focus is on sensationalizing (and selling you the idea that the world will end because of Fallujah) a particularly nasty battle, does not mean that things are either going well or going wrong with this war. I do not have the luxury to agree or disagree with this war, but I see that many people’s thoughts _about_ the war are directly influenced by the images they see on TV, without them doing any sort of research on their own time. That’s not to say what they’ve seen/heard isn’t the truth, it just appears to me that people take it carte blanche without considering the source. Cent No. 2: I see this quickly becoming my generation’s Vietnam. Tripler Here’s your $0.98 back. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/142 "2004-11-17T01:32:29Z")
We turned down an opportunity to get our hands on Zarqawi _after_ the start of the war too: > [@](#): > > Iran is reported to have Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in custody in summer of 2003, and to be entirely willing to hand him over to the US in return for some high-ranking MEK terrorists. But first the neocon network, including Franklin, Harold Rhode and Michael Ledeen, intervenes to stop the trade (see below). Then, mysteriously, everything that goes wrong in Iraq from about January of 2004 begins being blamed on Zarqawi (is it alleged that Iran let him go, to deliberately disrupt Iraq by blowing up Shiites? More likely, when Iran won’t accommodate the Neocons because of the latters’ ties to MEK, the neocons decide to smear Iran as “harboring” terrorists and “sending” them to Iraq. They know this path might even lead to a US war on Iran, which is what they want. That is one reason they did not want the prisoner exchange to succeed). [here](http://www.juancole.com/2004_08_01_juancole_archive.html#109383994241733290) I haven’t heard much about the Franklin investigation lately, wonder how it’ll go under the new AG? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/143 "2004-11-17T01:55:55Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > However, if the Bush administration had killed al-Zarqawi before the Iraq war, then I have no doubt that folks on this board would be decrying that as an unlawful act and the predictable revenge killings that would follow would then also be blamed on the US. Nothing like a good ol’ unsubstantiated allegation to get things going at a party, I always say. > [@](#): > > What I’ve learned here is that it’s all the US’s fault. Murdered your spouse? US’s fault for its actions raising your stress levels. Locusts eating your crops? US’s fault. If only the US had sent some locust fighting aid to your nation but it was greedy and didn’t. Curdled milk? US’s fault for failing to provide refridgeration. I can’t think of anything that happens in the world that isn’t the US’s fault at least indirectly. Perhaps earthquakes… You know what? If I hear the jailers at a maximum security prison are really a bunch of sick fucks, and my solution is to blow up the prison walls, I want the world to know **Blackclaw** says I’m not responsible for the carnage that the prisoners wreak. They may commit the murders and the rapes, but the victims’ survivors will be, for some odd reason, pissed at _me_. I say that’s just wrong. And bless my heart, so does **Blackclaw**. Thanks, bud. You’re gonna help pay my legal bills, right? **Squink** : thanks for refreshing my recollection. I’d read about that awhile back, but it’s damned hard to keep up with all this regime’s atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/144 "2004-11-17T02:17:31Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > My $0.02: > > Cent No. 1: I despise the media. It’s the fashion, I must admit. But I sure don’t trust this Administration to tell us the truth about anything, about this war or about anything else. And the media’s the only alternative. It’s them or the proven liars. > [@](#): > > Simply because all of the focus is on sensationalizing (and selling you the idea that the world will end because of Fallujah) a particularly nasty battle, does not mean that things are either going well or going wrong with this war. No, things are going wrong in this war because they lied about their reasons for going in (which even they couldn’t agree on; WMDs was the public justification they could concur on), they didn’t bother sending in enough troops to secure the known and suspected conventional and MD weapons sites in the country, and they had no plan whatsoever for what to do after the statue fell, other than try to put Chalabi in charge. They’ve gone from one temporary fix to the next for the past 18 months; this is just another bit of winging it. 66 Coalition soldiers lost their lives in Iraq last week. Why? I don’t know. But as evil as the Fallujah insurgents were, I don’t see how what we’ve done will bring us any closer to an honorable exit. The insurgents are romping and stomping in Mosul, Tal Afar, Ramadi, and a bunch of other towns. We’re playing Insurgent Whack-A-Mole, and we have to feed soldiers, not quarters, into the machine. > [@](#): > > I see that many people’s thoughts _about_ the war are directly influenced by the images they see on TV, without them doing any sort of research on their own time. I’ve seen about as much of this war on TV as I did the Vietnam war: essentially none. But I’ve read a great deal. > [@](#): > > Cent No. 2: I see this quickly becoming my generation’s Vietnam. On speed. Can’t forget the speed. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Bruce\_Daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Daddy)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/145 "2004-11-17T03:39:16Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Glad it’s understood–otherwise, you’ve got a hard time explaining all the countries we haven’t invaded… Patience, Mr. Withrow, patience. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/146 "2004-11-17T10:02:09Z")
> [@Bruce\_Daddy](#): > > Patience, Mr. Withrow, patience. 😉 Why the smiley? When you give your National Security Advisor the SecState job, it’s a fair bet that your foreign policy just became “make war on anyone who disagrees with you”. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/147 "2004-11-17T12:35:05Z")
> [@Alexander the Grape](#): > > They are guilty, but so are we. Would all of you who believe you are guilty for the actions of terrorists please turn yourselves in so we can put you away? ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/148 "2004-11-17T13:04:14Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Should be an easy enough search to do. If you don’t mind, I’d love to see those names, the context, and your argument that they were representative of any larger movement or group in opposition to that bombing, rather than loonies. Thanks! That’s a lot of demands upon me for my merely making a recollection. But here’s a highlight: > [@](#): > > So, the CIA considers itself free to murder me if a) I’m off U.S. soil and b) they even suspect I’m a terrorist. No arrest, no indictment, no presentation of evidence and defense; straight to execution. Very comforting. Aren’t there international laws against that sort of thing? I know Israel sometimes likes to blow people up rather than arrest them; doesn’t mean we have to. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=143346&highlight=Yemen+Predator](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=143346&highlight=Yemen+Predator) More on the past discussion [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=143287&highlight=Yemen+Predator](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=143287&highlight=Yemen+Predator) ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/149 "2004-11-17T13:09:30Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > You know what? If I hear the jailers at a maximum security prison are really a bunch of sick fucks, and my solution is to blow up the prison walls, I want the world to know **Blackclaw** says I’m not responsible for the carnage that the prisoners wreak. They may commit the murders and the rapes, but the victims’ survivors will be, for some odd reason, pissed at _me_. I say that’s just wrong. And bless my heart, so does **Blackclaw**. Thanks, bud. You’re gonna help pay my legal bills, right? I’ll chip in for your mental health therapy cause something is obviously malfunctioning in your grey orb to reach such a conclusion. I’ve already noted that the US bears responsibility for engaging in an act that has a predictable possible outcome, such as civil war in Iraq. We’ve moved on to arguing about whether or not the US is responsible for the actions of individual lunatics. I’m still holding out on that one. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/150 "2004-11-17T14:01:18Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Would all of you who believe you are guilty for the actions of terrorists please turn yourselves in so we can put you away? Can all those who feel our foreign policy and actions _have no consequences_ go start another country? That way OBL can go blow the proper people up and leave the rest of us alone. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/151 "2004-11-17T16:24:26Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > We’ve moved on to arguing about whether or not the US is responsible for the actions of individual lunatics. I’m still holding out on that one. I guess my problem is with your saying that these lunatics are unpredictable. On the specifics, sure–we don’t know **who** they’re going to kill. But we had a very good guess that they’d unleash a campaign of violence on **someone**. And that’s what I’m saying. I’m not sure how the US can be responsible for the forest (a burgeoning civil war) but not for the trees (the individual atrocities that inevitably accompany that war). I think I have to say this in every post, because otherwise people will misinterpret me: **the guilt of the murderers is undiminished**. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/152 "2004-11-17T17:19:40Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I guess my problem is with your saying that these lunatics are unpredictable. On the specifics, sure–we don’t know **who** they’re going to kill. But we had a very good guess that they’d unleash a campaign of violence on **someone**. > > And that’s what I’m saying. I’m not sure how the US can be responsible for the forest (a burgeoning civil war) but not for the trees (the individual atrocities that inevitably accompany that war). I just don’t want to see actions limited by what some group of unsound minds might or might not do. If it is given that invading Afghanistan was a necessity by the US, is the US then responsible for the inevitable reprisals against foreign aid workers by the Taliban? If the US makes a wrong decision, I don’t have any problem with holding it accountable for that decision. But trying to track down the hypotheticals of alternative timelines if the US had acted differently quickly turns meaningless for me. The US invaded Iraq and now there is a mess there that the US is responsible for. I can blame the US for the overall mess but trying to make the US share the blame for a particular atrocity commited by actors beyond the control of the US seems illogical to me. One can say that the US set the environment in which the atrocity took place but one can’t say that the US made this particular atrocity happen. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/153 "2004-11-17T17:35:22Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Can all those who feel our foreign policy and actions _have no consequences_ go start another country? That way OBL can go blow the proper people up and leave the rest of us alone. I think our foreign policy should be to leave people the fuck alone, and stop involving ourselves in the ancient and ceaseless squabbles of all these people. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/154 "2004-11-17T17:49:23Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > If it is given that invading Afghanistan was a necessity by the US, is the US then responsible for the inevitable reprisals against foreign aid workers by the Taliban? Well in a certain way, yes. It was pretty easy to assume before we invaded that once we did, the possibility of tragic incidents would increase. I’m not saying they should deter us btw. Anyone that is surprised that these type of beheadings and such are going on in Iraq should consider themselves a moron. Many people knew this was going to happen well before we went in. > [@](#): > > The US invaded Iraq and now there is a mess there that the US is responsible for. I can blame the US for the overall mess but trying to make the US share the blame for a particular atrocity commited by actors beyond the control of the US seems illogical to me. Not illogical at all, very simple. We had a chance to kill Zarqawi before the war. For some _very_ stupid reasons we didn’t, and look at how many heads have been sawed off a a result. Take Al Sadr, another guy we should have killed from the get go. We let him live, and then look at the hell he raises. How many people killed in his name, how many people did he arm, and how many of our soldiers died going after him. BTW we let him go again, he’s a free man right now. The next time Zarqawi cuts off someone’s fucking head, don’t tell me we’re not responsible ok? One can say that the US set the environment in which the atrocity took place but one can’t say that the US made this particular atrocity happen. [/QUOTE] So the US is responsibile for the “production” but not the “cast”? ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/155 "2004-11-17T17:50:21Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think our foreign policy should be to leave people the fuck alone, and stop involving ourselves in the ancient and ceaseless squabbles of all these people. Wouldn’t that be nice? That’s all a lot of us out here have been asking for for some time now. Unfortunately, it’s terribly inconvenient now as we’ve created an ugly mess that needs to be fixed before it implodes on the lot of us. I’m fairly secure in knowing nothing will be fixed in the next 4 years and thaty the spin machine will make this all out to be one _huge_ fucking success story, and countless Americans can hail their chief for being the knight in shining armor and bringing freedom and librty to an oppressed people who _surely_ are better off now that their country is occupied and a war rages on(with a looming internal civil war brewing). Sam ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/156 "2004-11-17T17:50:26Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > If it is given that invading Afghanistan was a necessity by the US, is the US then responsible for the inevitable reprisals against foreign aid workers by the Taliban? Well in a certain way, yes. It was pretty easy to assume before we invaded that once we did, the possibility of tragic incidents would increase. I’m not saying they should deter us btw. Anyone that is surprised that these type of beheadings and such are going on in Iraq should consider themselves a moron. Many people knew this was going to happen well before we went in. > [@](#): > > The US invaded Iraq and now there is a mess there that the US is responsible for. I can blame the US for the overall mess but trying to make the US share the blame for a particular atrocity commited by actors beyond the control of the US seems illogical to me. Not illogical at all, very simple. We had a chance to kill Zarqawi before the war. For some _very_ stupid reasons we didn’t, and look at how many heads have been sawed off a a result. Take Al Sadr, another guy we should have killed from the get go. We let him live, and then look at the hell he raises. How many people killed in his name, how many people did he arm, and how many of our soldiers died going after him. BTW we let him go again, he’s a free man right now. The next time Zarqawi cuts off someone’s fucking head, don’t tell me we’re not responsible ok? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/157 "2004-11-17T18:06:58Z")
> [@Roseworm](#): > > In Fallujah, US Marines discovered the body of a Western woman - wrapped in a sheet and dumped in the street. You say she was a _Western_ woman, eh? Hmmmm… well now that opens my eyes a bit. Western, eh? That is certainly bad form, I must say. A \*Western \* woman. From the West. Have there been any non-Western women killed? I ask just out of curiousity, not because it actually matters, or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/158 "2004-11-17T18:17:28Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Quote: > “The hospital was targeted by bombs and rockets. I was with a woman in labour. The umbilical cord had not yet been cut. At that time, a US solider shouted at one of the national guards to arrest me and tie my hands while I was helping the mother to deliver. I will never forget this incident,” the assistant doctor said. This is a transparent and ridiculous attempt at anti-american propaganda. This quote was not even contained in the link in question. Do any of you really believe that an American soldier would order someone away from the side of a woman that’s in the middle of giving birth? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/159 "2004-11-17T18:19:51Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Do any of you really believe that an American soldier would order someone away from the side of a woman that’s in the middle of giving birth? I don’t know what I believe anymore. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915/160 "2004-11-17T18:25:29Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > This is a transparent and ridiculous attempt at anti-american propaganda. I suppose that the abnormally high levels of anti-Iraq propaganda bother you equally as much? Statues toppling, young female army heroes, WMD talk, proof of Iraq plotting to destroy the U.S., the use of the word “evil” whenever President Bush talks about our opponent, Etc. > [@](#): > > Do any of you really believe that an American soldier would order someone away from the side of a woman that’s in the middle of giving birth? That’s a rhetorical question, right? This is a war and since it is war I’d not find **any** behavior by either party impossible. This is the reason war is to be avoided at any costs, and the reason our misguided attempt at settling the region should never have taken place. While a war waged against an enemy justifiably is bad, an unjustifiable war is 10 times worse. Sam [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-we-fight/274915.md?page=9)